Nazi salute!

[Mathwizz]

As you know I am new here and would like help, as I previously stated, to restructure my class. Part of the problems I have is the administration. Here's something that happened last year during my homeroom that I am still reeling about.

As normal, we had morning announcements via closed circuit TV and then came the Pledge of Allegiance which is pretty much the normal scenario for all of us. This particular morning one of my black female students got up and started doing a Nazi salute during the pledge yelling 'Heil Hitler'. I immediately sent her out of the room to In House Suspension, wrote an infraction report and quickly copied and pasted a volume of information about Nazi's,the holocaust and infidel's including a number of questions for her to answer after reading these 50 plus pages.

To my surprise the next morning the assistant principal called me to her office. When I got there the girl,her Mother and the assistant principal (she is an Afro-American herself). Well it began, the Mother ripped into me,the daughter followed and the assistant principal reprimanded me in front of both of them for being a racist and a bigot! It was like a Jerry Springer show gone bad. I try to explain what the girl had done was not right, but the assistant principal told me to keep my "white mouth shut". 45 minutes of this I had enough, I sat quietly,looking at the floor until I had to apologize to the girl and her Mother and I excused myself.

As I left the office the Principal pulled me into his office (he is a white male) sat me down and started again to reprimand me and told me the girl was well within her rights as an American citizen to do what she did.

I am Jewish and my Great Grandparents were tortured and killed in the holocaust. I take this whole incident very personally. My Mother lost her parents to the Nazi's and this girl and everyone else says it's OK to do this?

Please help me understand, what did I do wrong? I need to restructure my class so that I can face these students ,especially this girl in only a few weeks. I am desperate, if I can't resolve this i don't see how I can return in good faith.
Thanks in advance! Mathwizz

[Boxcar]

I'm in shock about reading this! I can only imagine what you must be feeling right now.

Here is what I might do in the situation:

I wouldn't bring up the incident again. It'll only open that can of worms again. Instead, I'd have rules in my room about routines. If a student has beliefs that do not align with those of others in the room, that individual is allowed to express these in ways that do not ruin the experiences of others. I'd stress mutual respect. This goes for ritual as well as learning. Some students don't participate in traditional mini-cerimonies while other do not wish to be in the room to learn.

I might not do the Pledge with my students. If I wanted to do something, I'd have a "moment of ritual" in the mornings. Students could be welcome to join me in facing the flag in silently saying the Pledge. They can also pray, do salutes, or just sit quietly for a moment of meditation. That way, I acknowledge everyone's beliefs or lack-there-of without stepping on toes.

I tend to avoid conflict. This might not be your way. I do have some strong beliefs yet attempt to be open to even things that seem REALLY wrong to me. Instead of saying someone can't do something, I try my best to provide lots of oppertunites for them to explore the subject and assist in drawing parrallels to thier own lives or those of thier group.

[Mathwizz]

I'm in shock about reading this! I can only imagine what you must be feeling right now.

Here is what I might do in the situation:

I wouldn't bring up the incident again. It'll only open that can of worms again. Instead, I'd have rules in my room about routines. If a student has beliefs that do not align with those of others in the room, that individual is allowed to express these in ways that do not ruin the experiences of others. I'd stress mutual respect. This goes for ritual as well as learning. Some students don't participate in traditional mini-cerimonies while other do not wish to be in the room to learn.

I might not do the Pledge with my students. If I wanted to do something, I'd have a "moment of ritual" in the mornings. Students could be welcome to join me in facing the flag in silently saying the Pledge. They can also pray, do salutes, or just sit quietly for a moment of meditation. That way, I acknowledge everyone's beliefs or lack-there-of without stepping on toes.

I tend to avoid conflict. This might not be your way. I do have some strong beliefs yet attempt to be open to even things that seem REALLY wrong to me. Instead of saying someone can't do something, I try my best to provide lots of oppertunites for them to explore the subject and assist in drawing parrallels to thier own lives or those of thier group.

Thanks for your time. Here's the kicker though. Now that the principal said it was OK for her to do this what would you expect this student to do this upcoming year? She will go running to him if I try to stop her as he has already opened that door. I'm thinking of getting some local or national organization involved but maybe this would be too extreme?

[Flower Child]

Not that I support these actions in any way..but doesn't this fall into the freedom of speech amendment. Aren't students all free to state their minds (referring to the black arm band incident that we learned in school law.)
It seems to me that students are getting more and more freedoms and educators are getting less and less. I am an American citizen, but I am not belligerent about it. However, I say, if you want to be a citizen of this country, and are proud of it, participate in the uniting rituals. If you are a citizen and don't want to be, sit down, be quiet and wait for your chance to leave. If you are not a citizen and you don't want to be, go home!
I seriously don't believe this young girl knew what she was doing and only wanted to stir up trouble. I think you used a perfect learning moment to show her to what she was eluding. As for the administration, they missed several learning moments, including showing proper respect!

[ballysharon]

I am appalled at this .....simply speechless. I wish I had words of advice but I don't know what I would do.

[Boxcar]

I wonder if it will even be an issue with this girl. Sometimes, a student will stop an action once it is condoned. She got what she wanted. What fun is that for her?

As I said, I tend to not want a hassle. I personally wouldn't want to push the issue with involving organizations. Maybe I would do that if I felt it would do some go. I'll be very frank here: You are going to lose this one. It suxs, I know. I could launch into a very unprofessional rant here, but I'll keep it clean. It is just not worth the trouble and round-and-round. If a productive and forthright debate could be had, I'd say "Go for it!", but that isn't the case.

You may just need to not provide any oppertunity for this misbehavior. Set up strict consequences for things like calling out in class point blank. Whether it is a comment like she made or something else, it won't be tolerated. This approach takes away the whole what-can-be-said element. Be "sneaky" if you have to and get your principal to sign off on your classroom rules. I doubt he'd object to something as vague that doesn't directly mention the incident or even really hint at it. You can be crafty and have this rule to cover your behind. Hey, he approved it!

Again, I'll be frank. I think you may need to stop saying the Pledge - at least until this student is out of your room. Does it feel like a victory for her? Yes. I have to admit that would bug me. I'm not a perfect person and can be a wee bit human... Yet, I think it what may have to be done. Sometimes, we do have to hang up our ideals and just carry on with it.

[SS Rocks!]

Please help me understand, what did I do wrong? I need to restructure my class so that I can face these students ,especially this girl in only a few weeks. I am desperate, if I can't resolve this i don't see how I can return in good faith.
Thanks in advance! Mathwizz

To answer your question, taking a job in that particular school.

I cannot properly put into words my feelings on the situation you encountered. It is absolutely ridiculous. In the same situation, I also would have sent the student, regardless of their gender, race, ethnicity, or religion, out of my classroom! This goes well beyond free speech into being blatantly offensive. I feel that you did nothing wrong.

I find it appalling that your administration would not only allow a parent to accuse you of racism in this situation but even join in.

My best wishes to you in the coming school year.

[dsmms]

If an administrator had told me to "keep my white mouth shut," I would be seeking legal advise. My husband served 20 years in the military, and I am appalled at the disrespect for our country's flag in this situation. Moreso, I am appalled at the stance that the principals took and the way it was handled!

[herdgrad]

I too am appalled. So much so that I read your post to my husband (who is an administrator at a high school). I thought the more I read the more his eyes were going to pop out of his head. He was speechless, just like the rest of us. The only thing he could say was where in the world did this happen? I told him that I do not know. I agree with dsmms about seeking legal advice after an administrator told me to "keep my white mouth shut". I am so sorry that you had to go through this and really hope this girl does not cause you any problems this year. I know I had a psycho parent/child one year and I can't even imagine having to have that child back!!! I wish I had advice, but I don't. Just keep your head up, be professional, and take the higher ground. You will come out of this!! If you need to vent, well you know where we are! :grouphug:

[muinteoir]

Wow.

Several comments.


The student does have the right to say what she did. She does not have the right to disrupt class or impose her beliefs on others. [I seriously doubt these were her beliefs, she was probably just being disruptive.]


To help prevent a similar incident, have expectations & procedures clearly defined for all class situations.

In that situation, you probably did over-react, although I understand why. It may have been more productive. To have a discussion with the student about why it was disruptive and why you found it personally offensive. It might it have been appropriate to take it as a "teachable moment" for the entire class; depending on your class.


The minute my 'reprimand' session turned into yelling, I would have walked out. No professional is treated that way.


The second I was told to 'shut my white mouth' I would have been on the phone to my union or professional association. I grievance would have been, I would have taken it as far as I could.


The student has rights, but you do to.


Do you know for certain that this same student will be in your class next year?

Depending on the job market, I would seriously reconsider not returning to that school.[/SIZE]

[Booky]

Wow.

Several comments.

[LIST=1]
The student does have the right to say what she did. She does not have the right to disrupt class or impose her beliefs on others. [I seriously doubt these were her beliefs, she was probably just being disruptive.]

Your position here is contrary and your conclusion presumptious. I mean no disrespect my friend. I just know of no other way to put it. She quite likely (nearly 100% possibility, BTW) learned her position from someone older than her, p[erhaps (highly likely) a parent or a twisted role model. It is dangerous to assume that this person is merely being "disruptive". Her agenda is probably not hers at all but merely a spike from a much larger one that has protruded into your classroom. A cancerous crystal from a much larger aggregate matrix if you will.

The fact remains that she does NOT have the right to say what she did. People under the age of 18 do not and should not have the same rights as adults. I DO believe that the have HUMAN rights INCLUDING the right to a safe home and an adequate education but not the right of free speech and unsupervised assembly. Many would no doubt disagree with me on this but I will not change my position without some VERY CONVINCING evidence to the contrary. They have not had enough time in our world to effectively "manage" their emotions and actions as responsible citizens should. Is this not part of our education system? To train these young minds to indeed discriminate between right and wrong, good and evil, and appropriate vs inappropriate forms of self expression?

To further elucidate this point I must go back to the beginning of my post where I am taking the position that this behaviour is actually a coached charade, possibly by the very mother who met you in the principal's office. I would even hassard to guess that when the child and her mother were at home there was likely a congratulatory celebration of some sort for their victory over you.


To help prevent a similar incident, have expectations & procedures clearly defined for all class situations.

I couldn't agree more. Good point.


In that situation, you probably did over-react, although I understand why. It may have been more productive. To have a discussion with the student about why it was disruptive and why you found it personally offensive. It might it have been appropriate to take it as a "teachable moment" for the entire class; depending on your class.

Mathwizz under-reacted and he or she continues to under-react. Just because this insidious administrator refused to acknowledge the seriousness of this situation regardless of her reason for doing so doesn't mean Mathwizz should just sit there and take it. I think, no I KNOW that the local news media, perhaps even CNN or Fox news would LOVE to hear about this wretched child. A black Neo-Nazi in America. Some things aren't really worth going to the wall for - you pick your battles, right? Well this one sounds pretty good.



The minute my 'reprimand' session turned into yelling, I would have walked out. No professional is treated that way.

True, but the minute you "walk out" you are showing a very dangerous card in your hand. The weakling. What you do is swallow your pride for a moment, try and leave it where you will need another meeting about it and bring a damn recording device nest time so you'll have something for the news media or the state school superintendant.



The second I was told to 'shut my white mouth' I would have been on the phone to my union or professional association. I grievance would have been, I would have taken it as far as I could.


Absolutely!!



Do you know for certain that this same student will be in your class next year?

Depending on the job market, I would seriously reconsider not returning to that school.[/SIZE]

Nonsense. Take a stand.

Great post, Muinteor. Good luck with this situation, Mathwizz. I don't think any of us envy you one bit the responsibility that has been thrust upon you here.

Best

[herdgrad]

I came across an OLD article written by the late sydicated columnist Sydney Harris and thought of this post when I read it. He was relating an incident he and his friend had at a local newspaper stand and it went something like this:
He said he and his friend walked up to the paper stand where they patiently waited for service. Finally, as they were approached by the attendant, they were addressed in almost an accusatory tone, "What do you want?"
The man with Sydney Harris responded, "I would like to have a copy of the London Times, please."
"Just a minute!" came the abrupt response. The man returned a minute later, slapped the paper on the counter and snapped, "That's six bits." The friend offered the money to the attendant and received a cold, "Hold on" as he turned to make change. After a few moments the attendant returned, sliding the change across the counter without a word.
"Thank you," the friend directed to the man who ha already turned around and moved away. He recovered his change from the counter and turned to leave. As Sydney and his friend moved away from the stand, Sydney stopped his friend and questioned, "Wait a minute, I've got to know something. Do you come here everyday for a newspaper?"
"Yes," replied his surprised friend. "Everyday. Why?"
"I have got to know something; does that man treat you like that everyday?"
"Yes," his friend answered, "I am afraid he does"
"Now I really need to know, how can you take that?" He was just rude and hateful, and you even said "Thank you" of that!? Doesn't the way he treat you make you angry?
The friend was surprised, and stared at Sydney as if the answer was obvious. His response was classis, and the perfect validation of the fact that all behaviors are choices, when he said, "I don't want him to decide what kind of day I'm going to have."

I know that was long....but it just got me thinking.....DON'T let this girl, her parent, or that principal DECIDE what kind of year you are going to have. Let that be your choice!

[Mathwizz]

I posted earlier but I didn't realize putting a link in the post was a no-no. So I'll try to remember what it was.

Basically I think that if I don't do something before school starts I will be in deep trouble as well as many of my colleagues. The principal opened the door for this and all the other students to do whatever they want because "they have the right to"........says the principal. So I foresee students getting up in the middle of class walking out saying, "I'm off to the bathroom "it's my right!" "The principal says so!"
Can you imagine the chaos this will cause? I and all the other teachers will be at the mercy of students.
The link I posted was in reference to me contacting the Anti-Defamation League for help with the original problem of the Nazi salute. It may be a strong move but I am exhausted of any other ideas and fear the worse upon returning without some support.
Please if you have any other ideas I am willing to listen. I hate to be such a drama queen but this incident won't let me alone.

[Spectre]

muinteoir spoke the very words I was thinking..... :jaw-dropping:


"shut your white mouth...."


These were her exact words????? I am aghast. Some believe racism goes only one way, white on black. Nothing could be farther from the truth. What you described is an obvious racially biased remark, one that should be addressed with legal counsel and/or union/association involvement. I can assure you that if that assistant had been caucasian and you had been ANY minority and she had told you to keep your (whatever) mouth, around here, the woman would have been suspended, almost immediately, subject to investigation and most probably, dismissal - as she SHOULD be. Please don't just let this slip by. If this person did this with you, she will most probably do it (or has done it) with others. Bigotry, in whatever color you find it, is unacceptable.


You need to find someplace else to be.


Your administration obviously supports this kind of activity or chooses to ignore it. Sooooo many administrators, anymore, choose to play the ostrich game, burying their heads in the sand and being politically correct. It takes intestinal fortitude to do the right thing and it's obvious your head administrator lacks any of that.

Do yourself a favor. Get out of there as soon as you can.


Gonna have to do something I don't think I have ever done and differ a bit with muintenoir


The girl might have had the "right" to do what she did, but I promise you that if I went into downtown Greensboro and shouted "ni****!", the result would be immediate and with dire consequence. Most black residents would have little concern for how much "right" I had, but rather, with the ugly slur I had just hurled at them. Along with rights come responsibilities. In our politically correct schools, that last part seems to be forgotten, all too often.


Your reaction to her shouting"Heil Hitler" and giving the Nazi salute to our country's flag had NOTHING to do with her ethnicity


I feel confident you would have reacted the same way had any of your hispanic. asian, or caucasian students done the same thing. It was the action, NOT the color of perpetrator. Am I right?

I endured something similar a few years back when, after he assaulted me, I took out charges against one of my black students. When it came to juvy court, the NAACP "advocate" alledged that I had only reacted as I did due to the race of the student. Utterly ridiculous. Any sane person could have seen that and any person who really knew me, understood it as well.

Sadly, this is a fairly common tactic, one used to draw attention away from the real problem. In the final analysis, it helps no one and can only stir racial misunderstanding.

I know you feel angry and frustrated right now. As I said, I have been there. One final word of advice: don't let your anger provoke you into saying or doing something that makes it all worse.

As the "Desiderata" tell us:

"Speak your truth quietly and listen to others. Even the dull and the ignorant. They too have their story."

[Mathwizz]

"These were her exact words?????"

Yes, I didn't mistake what was said, can you imagine this? Aside from the girls actions now I have a reverse discrimination problem.

"You need to find someplace else to be.
Do yourself a favor. Get out of there as soon as you can."

Unfortunately the job market being what it is doesn't allow for changing jobs and having tenure is another thing which is hard to leave behind.

About the racial thing. You are correct it had nothing to do with the girl being black, any student doing this act would have been handles the same way, at least by me. The racial problem began with the Assistant Principal then flowing over to the Mother,now the daughter. I suppose this year this girl will be calling me Mr.Cracker or Mr. Honkey and the Principal will tell her "it's freedom of speech. Again you are correct if a white person or I as a teacher called someone the "N" word, Jackson and Sharpton would be all over me.

"I know you feel angry and frustrated right now. As I said, I have been there. One final word of advice: don't let your anger provoke you into saying or doing something that makes it all worse."

You bet I'm frustrated. Angry,maybe but more frustrated knowing there are only a few weeks before we return and I need to do something and fast. I still think the Anti-Defamation League may come to my defense. What else can I do? I doubt the KKK would help much since I am Jewish.

[Spectre]

"These were her exact words?????"

Yes, I didn't mistake what was said, ca

You bet I'm frustrated. Angry,maybe but more frustrated knowing there are only a few weeks before we return and I need to do something and fast. I still think the Anti-Defamation League may come to my defense. What else can I do? I doubt the KKK would help much since I am Jewish.

This is apparently a public school, given the mention of tenure.:wowee:I cannot believe they are treating you this way.

Don't you belong to a union or a professional organization (Like NEA) that could advocate for you? You should not have to deal with this by yourself. If, perchance, you do not belong to a union or association, I recommend you affiliate yourself with one as swiftly as you can, most certainly before the next school year begins.:confused2:

Yes, the job market is not good now and giving up tenure, which I did, twice, to get into a better situation, is not the preferable move, but are you sure you are able to function in an environment like the one you're in?

[Mathwizz]

This is apparently a public school, given the mention of tenure.:wowee:I cannot believe they are treating you this way.

Don't you belong to a union or a professional organization (Like NEA) that could advocate for you? You should not have to deal with this by yourself. If, perchance, you do not belong to a union or association, I recommend you affiliate yourself with one as swiftly as you can, most certainly before the next school year begins.:confused2:

Yes, the job market is not good now and giving up tenure, which I did, twice, to get into a better situation, is not the preferable move, but are you sure you are able to function in an environment like the one you're in?


Sorry Spectre, I was away for a few days. Yes I belong to the NEA I have called them twice and they promised to review the details and get back to me. As of today there has been no return calls. The local union, well if you belong to one you already know how much help they can be?
Today is Saturday and I've made myself a promise by next Friday either something gets resolved or I am calling on the Anti-Defamation League. We will see action then I'm sure, being Jewish and having this kind of outrageous act with administrations blessing I'm sure will not set well with them. It may be shooting myself in the foot but it will be worth it.

I always have another foot.

[muinteoir]

In Tinker vs. Des Moines, The SCOTUS ruled that students do not "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." -the First Amendment protected the right of high school students to wear black armbands in a public high school, as a form of protest against the Viet Nam War. The Court ruled that this symbolic speech--"closely akin to pure speech"--could only be prohibited by school administrators if they could show that it would cause a substantial disruption of the school's educational mission.

This particular student situation, as hateful as it was, probably did not meet this standard.

In Bethel vs Frasier, on the other hand, the court issued victories for school administrators over the First Amendment claims of students. In Bethel, the Court upheld the right of Washington state high school administrators to discipline a student for delivering a campaign speech at a school assembly that was loaded with sexual innuendo. The Court expressed the view that administrators ought to have the discretion to punish student speech that violates school rules and has the tendency to interfere with legitimate educational and disciplinary objectives.

Again, although I in no way condone nor approve of the student's actions, unless the school had a rule against this type of speech; I am reasonably sure that the student did indeed have a constitutional right to say what she did.

Unless there is evidence of "substantial disruption" or an "interference with legitimate educational and disciplinary objectives" the statement that "The fact remains that she does NOT have the right to say what she did. People under the age of 18 do not and should not have the same rights as adults." has no standing in a court of law.

The original poster did not describe any disruption, or any reaction on the part of the other students, only his own response.

I have been in this business almost 3 decades, students want to push our buttons, test limits, whatever you want to call it. They often do so in the most inappropriate ways.

I sincerely doubt that a black student would embrace the beliefs of the Nazi party; including the superiority of the Aryan Nation and eugenics. I agree that she probably is parroting beliefs from someone, but I do not believe that she understands them, nor do I believe a parent or other role model (the parent also being black) would espouse these beliefs. No, she was just being an obnoxious teenager.

In my opinion, refusing to be yelled at is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of self-respect and a sense of dignity of one's person. That's my opinion and my personal standard of behavior of course.

The real question for the original poster is "what about this year?"

Do you have a copy of a student code of conduct? school rules? anything like that? Follw the lead in that document.

Set up procedures and expectations for your classroom right from the start.

When a child misbehaves again (and they will), have a defensible plan in place to deal with it.

I might even find the child, explain my reaction, and see if we could have a fresh start. Most students respond well to teachers who are not afraid to reach out.

I still wouldn't work for anyone who told me to "shut my white mouth." And I would still file a grievance.

[muinteoir]

muinteoir spoke the very words I was thinking..... :jaw-dropping:





Gonna have to do something I don't think I have ever done and differ a bit with muintenoir
:laugh:



The girl might have had the "right" to do what she did, but I promise you that if I went into downtown Greensboro and shouted "ni****!", the result would be immediate and with dire consequence. Most black residents would have little concern for how much "right" I had, but rather, with the ugly slur I had just hurled at them. Along with rights come responsibilities. In our politically correct schools, that last part seems to be forgotten, all too often.



You will get no argument from me on this point. I do not think that the child's actions were appropriate, or even 'right' in the everyday sense of the word.

I do think that the child did indeed have a constitutional right to say it. As foul and vile as most of us find it, if she did not meet the standard of disruption set forth in Tinker vs Des Moines, she can say it.

When conflicts such as these escalate, they often end up in our courts; and everyday 'rights' have no standing there.

The trick for us as teachers, is to determine how to turn such a situation into one where some learning can take place.

[Spectre]

As we sometimes say here, in the Southland, "nuts" to how your school administration feels! What they think has NOT helped you thus far and does not seem likely do it anytime soon, based on what you say.

As for NEAs slowness or reluctance to do most anything that stirs up any fuss, I am not at all surprised there either. Three times, during my career, I really needed them in my corner and only once did they really advocate for me...sort of. I did not renew with them last school year, as I grew weary of spending hundreds of dollars on dues for an organization that seemed more interested in advocating for themselves and their political agendas rather than for the people it is supposed to represent.
Don't count on bureaucrats to do this for you, If that means talking to the anti-defamation people, then I say do it. I don't think you should allow your administration, particularly that biased assistant principal, to skate on this. If they can do it to you, as I think I said, they will try and do it to others. You need to make them face up to their lack of responsible action. One of the BIGGEST problems is education today,other than NCLB, is weak leadership. I cannot recall a time in my quarter century career where I have seen so many inept, inexperienced and self-serving administrators. And it's a shame because our kids suffer for it.
Use that other foot to kick these folks in the hind quarters! :mad:

[Spectre]

You will get no argument from me on this point. I do not think that the child's actions were appropriate, or even 'right' in the everyday sense of the word.

I do think that the child did indeed have a constitutional right to say it. As foul and vile as most of us find it, if she did not meet the standard of disruption set forth in Tinker vs Des Moines, she can say it.

When conflicts such as these escalate, they often end up in our courts; and everyday 'rights' have no standing there.

The trick for us as teachers, is to determine how to turn such a situation into one where some learning can take place.

Someone once told me that the first step in any "revolution" is to "kill all the lawyers." LOL! I cannot say I subscribe to that, but sometimes "legalities" do seem to get in the way of common sense. Still, I am glad we have checks and balances in our system.
I guess I am reacting to all this in a "gut" sort of fashion. As you likely recall, I've had some fairly recent scrapes with the system of juvenile "justice" myself and am somewhat weary of "obnoxious" teens, but even more weary of ignorant adults who aid, enable, and abett them. :mad:

[Boxcar]

I was thinking about the idea of significant disruption.

In this situation, it could be said that it did not. However, the same exact thing could have occured with a much more volitle result. I could easily see a comment like this or one similar could turn very serious if the class reacted. In some schools, this is enough to start a physical scuffle. All that had to of happened is someone standing up with attitude and say "You're dissing my people!" An arguement might have ensued. Other students become involved. It turned physical. Things escalate. Is this a stretch? No, I don't think it is. In some groups of students in some schools, it could go down like this.

My thought is this: Is it not the audience and the circumstances that dictate what is disruptive? If we are to be setting precedents, society/legal system/whoever needs to take care when doing so.

Just something that sprang to mind... It is never clear-cut, is it?

[Spectre]

My thought is this: Is it not the audience and the circumstances that dictate what is disruptive? If we are to be setting precedents, society/legal system/whoever needs to take care when doing so.

Just something that sprang to mind... It is never clear-cut, is it?

You've got it. And therein lies the rub.

We've become so obcessed with "rights," that we forget about responsibility. Gee...where Have I heard that???

I would tend to agree with you, Boxcar. In my junior high school, if someone had done what this girl did, they would have been pummeled into fried whale feces! Most of us were children of ww 2 veterans and things like Pearl Harbor and the Holocaust were still very fresh in the minds and psyche of my community.

As others said, doubtless, this girl did what she did for shock value and not because she actually admired Adolph Hitler. It was an ignorant, tasteless thing to do and, I fear, I might well have reacted as the OP said he did, regardless of her free speech rights! :soapbox:

[coolhandluke]

That administration is absolutely ridiculous!!! You need to find yourself a new school district that is not racist. Unbelievable.

[Jsphrsa]

Correction: The student has rights, but you do too.

[Mathwizz]

Jsprsa, you are correct but unfortunately my rights must end when I get out of my car on the school campus. As far as another school there isn't another school within my district to go to. The job market being what it is and I have years of service to think about starting all over again. In other words "I'm stuck!"

I went back to work a day early to have some time to myself in order to get things ready before all the pre-school inservices and meetings began. As I walked down the hall to my room the principal passed me. He stopped chatted a bit about his and my summer then the "incident" came up. He said that he hoped "we wouldn't have any repeat performances like last year" turned and left. As he walked away I called his name in order to ask him what he meant. Without even turning around he rose his hand with that "stop talking,I'm walking away" kind of wave.

I went into my classroom so upset I forgot about spending the rest of the day there (on my own time) and left.

Students have returned including "that girl" which I knew she would. As she walked into the classroom she smirked at me as to say "Round II". I wanted to speak with her in private so I asked her to wait after homeroom was over. She left anyway,.......I feel this is going to be a rough year!

[hweber]

Good Luck mathwizz. I sure hope that you can get past this. I think it will be hard to do though.

[herdgrad]

Good luck, I hope this doesn't become a problem again. If you need to vent you know we are here.

[SS Rocks!]

Best wishes to you. I hope your year goes well. If you need to vent, we're here! :waving:

[Spectre]

I truly admire your stick-to-it-ness....:)

Maybe it's because I've been in the classroom so long, but I could not function in a situation like yours. :confused:

"another incident?" So they still blame you, then? And walking away with a wave of the hand....I wonder how this principal would feel if you did that.... Respect is a two way street. Your administration does not seem to grasp that.

The girl obviously feels very empowered; her blatant disregard of your request to meet with her speaks volumes. :jaw-dropping:

I would be a greeter at Wallmart before I would work in conditions like that. But that's me.

I wish you all the best.