Parent Conference

[outdoortn]

I had a parent of a very bright student come in for a conference. She proceeded to tell me that her son hates coming to school. I asked what specifically does he hate. She told me that he is bored and that what I am teaching him is pathetically watered down. I told her I use the school district's curriculum and try to differentiate as much as possible. I also offered to work on an additional science project with him since that is his area of interest. He so far has not seemed excited about the extra project. The student doesn't seem bored in class and seems very happy at school. What do you say to parent who says that their child hates coming to school because of your class?

[MissTeach]

I have handled situations much like you did. I have offered to work with the child on separate projects to challenge them. Usually the child doesn't really want to do anything extra. I also suggest to the parents that they can enrich their child's learning with projects at home. I suggest novels they can read and discuss with their child, family journals, etc. And I always suggest that the child can keep a novel in their backpack to read when they get bored.

[seastarmath]

I have a parent like that this year.
In the past, when I have responded to complaints like this by giving the student more challenging work that requires higher level thinking, the parent complains that it isn't fair their student is graded on harder work than the others. I am coming to the conclusion that it is an ego thing with the parents. At some point, parents have to realize the limitations of public education. Like the saying goes, we work hard, but we can't work miracles.

[Aliceacc]

Request a conference with both mom and Junior to find a solution to the problem.

I'm willing to bet that Junior isn't nearly as anxious for extra, more challenging work as mom is for him to have it.

[teacher5]

I really think you've got it all when you combine the idea having a sit down face to face with the parent and child. Get ready for the parent to tell you what they want for their child and the child might try to deny it and say they don't really want the extra work or different work. Kids really don't want to be different from their peers. Get ready for the parent to tell the kid he/she doesn't really know what is best for them and the parent and teacher do, so get down to doing the different or extra work. Then let the parent struggle with it when the kid doesn't want to do it. Usually reading a higher independent reading level book, presenting extra challenging math word problems that require multi-steps, illustrations & explanations or procedures and/or solutions, and some type of independent science research and project/experiment are ideas. But I'd be willing to bet that this will fade away over time. Good Luck!

[dsmms]

The words "bite me" comes to mind but that isn't very professional I guess.

I heard the same "stuff" from a parent last year. The problem with this student is that he didn't do any work at all! You can't differentiate nothing! I told her I would love to challenge him but he has to show me what he can do first! She told me that if he doesn't think the work has value, he won't do it. I reminded her that he is 12 years old and until he has a degree and his own class room, he doesn't get to determine what is of value. That felt so good to say...and so true! He is in seventh grade this year. I wonder if they have anything of value for him to do. Doubt it.

It sounds like a similar situation to me. I don't think anything you do will be appreciated so do what you always do and don't take what she said personally.

dsmms

[mercygate]

The words "bite me" comes to mind but that isn't very professional I guess.

I heard the same "stuff" from a parent last year. The problem with this student is that he didn't do any work at all! You can't differentiate nothing! I told her I would love to challenge him but he has to show me what he can do first! She told me that if he doesn't think the work has value, he won't do it. I reminded her that he is 12 years old and until he has a degree and his own class room, he doesn't get to determine what is of value. That felt so good to say...and so true! He is in seventh grade this year. I wonder if they have anything of value for him to do. Doubt it.

It sounds like a similar situation to me. I don't think anything you do will be appreciated so do what you always do and don't take what she said personally.

dsmmsThis syndrome works in both directions. I had a kid in 6th grade last year who never did any work and the mom complained that the work was too hard. My supervisor was the one who told her that we couldn't judge whether the work was too hard if the kid never handed anything in. The problem wasn't the kid; it was the totally messed up, dysfunctional "blended" (hah!) family.

[Clearly Canadian]

Oh the things we'd love to say but would lose our jobs over! So often kids who are "bored" really aren't. That just seems like an easy thing to tell their parents when the students really just aren't interested in doing the work. I agree with the previous posts, it's probably more a case of mom being more interested in having jr. do more challenging work, than anything else. It's almost like the "I'm bored" excuse backfires, because then the student is faced with tougher, higher level thinking skills challenges, but what they really wanted was an easy out for the work they weren't doing already!

[Helix]

In the case of some of the students I've seen so far this semester, "bored" often means that "What do you mean you can't just hand me the information on-demand with all the bells, whistles, using supplies from your own pocket and planned for 3 hours the night before so I can disrupt your class and still make you feel like a lowly dog dropping under my feet?" I find it becomes a discipline issue. You'd be surprised how quickly "bored" can be eliminated when you start handing them worksheets where they're responsible for getting ALL the answers right, because it'll be on their test next week. I've just gotten fed up with the passive behavior of the MTV generation and just started stepping it up. Challenging sometimes just comes down to the amount of "busy work" they're given to reach their goal in curriculum objectives.

I was defined as a "gifted" child in school. My parents realized the education system would fail me, unless they did something...shock horror....TOOK AN INTEREST IN TEACHING ME OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL!

I apologize if I seem harsh towards the kid, but I resent how parents "blame" teachers every time their kids don't do something, when in reality it's the society around them which their behavior is considered the "norm." What are these kids going to do when they have office paperwork to do, or have to perform the same tasks everyday?

[muinteoir]

Request a conference with both mom and Junior to find a solution to the problem.

I'm willing to bet that Junior isn't nearly as anxious for extra, more challenging work as mom is for him to have it.

I think this is a brilliant idea. :clap:

Bringing everyone together shows your interest in differentiating for the child; just make sure state/district/testable standards are being addressed.

Mom and child will both have to buy in to this. If there is a difference in mom and child's viewpoint, it will come to light.

Create a learning contract for all parties. Mom agrees, you agree, the child may or may not agree. If he doesn't, then mom is aware of the real truth.

If he does agree, then you are truly meeting his needs.

It's a win-win.

[seastarmath]

Helix, you are so right on!

And dsmms, I laughed so hard at your post! I love it!

[55555]

I have offered to work with the child on separate projects to challenge them. Usually the child doesn't really want to do anything extra.
It's true, we don't care about school. At all.


At some point, parents have to realize the limitations of public education. Like the saying goes, we work hard, but we can't work miracles.
One of the few good comments in this thread. Parents are often a big part of the problem when it comes to school.


Request a conference with both mom and Junior to find a solution to the problem.Lol, if this happened with me and my dad, my dad would just end up telling me to quit being a baby and just do the work because that's real life. Parent-teacher-student conferences are idiotic, I'm sorry.



I heard the same "stuff" from a parent last year. The problem with this student is that he didn't do any work at all! You can't differentiate nothing! I told her I would love to challenge him but he has to show me what he can do first! She told me that if he doesn't think the work has value, he won't do it. I reminded her that he is 12 years old and until he has a degree and his own class room, he doesn't get to determine what is of value. That felt so good to say...and so true
FAIL.

Not even sure how to respond to that.


Oh the things we'd love to say but would lose our jobs over! So often kids who are "bored" really aren't. That just seems like an easy thing to tell their parents when the students really just aren't interested in doing the work. I agree with the previous posts, it's probably more a case of mom being more interested in having jr. do more challenging work, than anything else. It's almost like the "I'm bored" excuse backfires, because then the student is faced with tougher, higher level thinking skills challenges, but what they really wanted was an easy out for the work they weren't doing already!
FAIL.


In the case of some of the students I've seen so far this semester, "bored" often means that "What do you mean you can't just hand me the information on-demand with all the bells, whistles, using supplies from your own pocket and planned for 3 hours the night before so I can disrupt your class and still make you feel like a lowly dog dropping under my feet?" I find it becomes a discipline issue. You'd be surprised how quickly "bored" can be eliminated when you start handing them worksheets where they're responsible for getting ALL the answers right, because it'll be on their test next week. I've just gotten fed up with the passive behavior of the MTV generation and just started stepping it up. Challenging sometimes just comes down to the amount of "busy work" they're given to reach their goal in curriculum objectives.

I was defined as a "gifted" child in school. My parents realized the education system would fail me, unless they did something...shock horror....TOOK AN INTEREST IN TEACHING ME OUTSIDE OF SCHOOL!

I apologize if I seem harsh towards the kid, but I resent how parents "blame" teachers every time their kids don't do something, when in reality it's the society around them which their behavior is considered the "norm." What are these kids going to do when they have office paperwork to do, or have to perform the same tasks everyday?
Helix almost got it, but then failed.


It's always so much easier to condemn a child than it is to understand one.

[monkey666]

teachers your methods couldant be more wrong.

Ill, be working with 55555

So anyway hi 55555!

[matty555]

Nowaday teaching methods are usually always wrong.

And yep 55555 Is right we really dont care about school.

The school education system is so messed up all we are doing is memorizing for tests, then what will we do? Forget about it all after the test. So there Is no point and the education is forced down our throats.

"The "right" to education gets forced onto people, which kinda ruins the whole idea."
Soulriser

[Boxcar]

NOTE: I use the term "you" in a general sense. I am speaking to students as a group. This isn't for anyone in particular. Read my other posts, and you'll see how I write.

If you are smart enough to judge what is the "right" and "wrong" way to be taught, you are also able to determine something else: There are certain things you need to do to get by.

I'll do everything I can to help a student learn in thier own style and succeed. However, I expect cooperation. If a student isn't willling to help me help them, it is over.

Now, I'm talking the upper grades here. I take a different tactic with my little ones.

If a student is just so dead set against school, fine. Suffer the consequences. We all learn to do things we don't like. To borrow from ecconomics, the world is about tradeoffs. Although the Queen said "Let them eat cake!", we can't have that cake and eat it too.

Therefore, a student can either choose to pass or to fail. A typically developing student without challenges impairing understanding or judgement should be allowed to fall. This is a last resort, but it can come down to it.

Frankly, I don't care if you don't like school. If all you are going to do is whine and aay teachers are wrong, that isn't going to help. Yes, NCLB srewed things up. So, we do what we can. If you have an ideal way in which to learn, let your teacher know. Work with instead of against.

Because you do need to learn the things school teach. That lesson I learned about leaves and photosynthesis? I needed that to explain to my preschoolers why not to pull leaves off a tree. Knowing how cells divide? Now, I know why people get cancer.

I'm not trying to convince you school is useful. It is, but you don't have to take my word for it. My point is this: Life is what you make of it. You choose to say FU, and life will say it right back. You suffer those consequences. You choose to be creative and find alternatives. Life will reward those attempts.

Just get through school, and move onto your next goal. Why fight it? You're going to lose. THe tighter you grip a handful of sand, the more it slids out of your fingers. The more relaxed your fist, the lessl you lose. Think about it.

There comes a point, my friend. There comes a point when you have to decide your own destiny.

Even my threes and fours learn this. For example, I'll set out lots of activities and leave open the multiple centers in my room. However, a student will sometimes decide they don't want to do anything. Instead of running around the room trying to find exactly what they want, I let them know that not playing is their choice. That sutent can stay on the rug if s/he wishes. The conswquence is boredom. Of course, I try to be flexible by intially asking what would the child like to do. If the child suggest something that can easily added or added with moderate ease, I'll allow it. On the other hand, it might be something like painting with feet or riding trikes. These choices aren't feasible unless a large group is involved. That child has to pick an alternative or sit it out.

My line of thinking is that we always have choices. As teachers, we try our best to provide excellant options and little resistance to self-direction. However, there comes a limit. There is a time when we chose between the lesser of the "two evils". Because we are all what we are. You cannot expect the mirciles you can't even name, the solutions you can't invent, and the scenes you can't sketch.

Complaints are nothing but the verbal equivilant of empty calories. Proposed solutions and rational speech are the nutrients fro healing borken systems.

This is a lengthy post, and i hope I've expressed myself in a coherant manner. You will have to be the judge of whether or not I've been an effective poster on this thread.

One more thought for the road: Turnabout is fair play. You don't care about school, don't expect it to care about you.

[seastarmath]

Boxcar, that was beautifully stated!

[55555]

I had trouble understanding some of your post, can you proofread next time? :)


There are no implied messages in my post. It is what it is at face. Nah, there was definitely more there than what was at face. Just because you didn't intend for it, doesn't mean it's not there.


We do have choices.
See, I don't understand this. You keep talking about "choices". But you keep attaching a negative connotation to those choices which lie outside the accepted social norm. In other words, just because someone isn't doing something that the general society around them would view as "normal", "successful" etc., then fundamentally, it is something bad that comes with various "consequences".


I idd state that a studnet has choices: pass vs. fail and drop-out vs. graduate.
I love these common dichotomies that are often made, and they are often unfortunately made by teachers. I love how you made a X vs. Y choice here. You keep telling this to a child and that child's mind is going to block out grand ideas, uncommon insight, curiosity, creativity, and they'll just be that much closer to turning into another mindless drone for the economy.

That's ultimately what it comes down to right? Schools have always provided a nice way of creating efficient workers for the State. It's a way of creating competition within the economy between the worker and the employer. Those who choose to play the game (no matter how banal it is), will be able to compete for different employers using that meaningless piece of paper they received from X university. The employers themselves will screen workers and pick the ones that they know will turn out to be efficient workers that will create profit. To be honest, degrees and credentials are a type of currency and they are traded in the market just like dollars, euros, and yen.

In terms of actually living a meaningful life, none of these things have any intrinsic value. Like I said in my previous post, there are more ways than these false dichotomies you set up.

I'm sure you know about Rosa Parks right? Someone probably told her, "You can either sit in the back of the bus, or you can get off the bus." But she chose an option that nobody said was available to her. True, she did have consequences (she was arrested). But look what that did for herself.

In the same way, people can choose to leave the system or perhaps find a way to partially exist within it (have their cake and eat it too). Perhaps they will suffer all sorts of consequences but if they're finding their identity in this universe and eating out of a garbage dumpster, they've already got a more fulfilling life than that 40-year old ant in an office cubicle with that uninspiring marriage, kids that hate him, and dreams that were lost when he became a cog in the machine.


A willingness to accept these results is evidence of being able to truly make one's own decisions.

Whining that society or whomever is to blame is not productive. It is also unrealistic.

A person who can reflect on his/her own self can identify and counteract external influences...

...Addictions and self-injurious behaviors are terribly hard to obercome, but the first step is facing hard truths.

Do you have any idea how naive you sound? I'm sorry, but this is insulting.

I have a friend who is luckily still alive. He's 28 years old and he's been in and out of a phD program for biology and is one of the smartest guys I know. He used to teach lower undergraduates and apparently his students adore him. He often relapses into depression and he's talked to me about his suicide problem and also a lot about his parents who were both physically abusive to him when he was young. He's been through all the therapy a million times and I try to convince him he's worth something but guess what? His environment really messed him up. Despite being able to fully conceptualize the problem and identify the underlying the source of his problems, it's still extremely hard even for a man like him. His parents' attitude toward him is burned in the back of his brain.

He would be considered a mild case compared to what some people have to go through. I know that people like you and me have lived a relatively mild life and fortunately have never had to live in the ghetto. I assumed you've lived a relatively comfortable life, otherwise you wouldn't be saying these things. And no, having a hard day at work and putting up with snotty kids or being out of work temporarily doesn't count. Not even close.

Your attitude that unfortunately many carry does not motivate honest victims' of their environment to make themselves better. The tone in your words is condemning and it makes me a little disgusted to be honest. You're supposed to be a teacher, and I hope you aren't telling any of these things to your kids.


Those who complain about a system but make no move to propose a solution become little more than noise.

More uninspiring, insulting tripe. I condemn school and "the system" all the time. Once my life attains a little more stability, expect me when I start conspiring with children to commit civil disobedience in order to spread a message. Hey you know what? Maybe I'll write a book later that will be the ultimate guide to what school really is, why it's horrible, how a child can remove themselves from it, things they can do to start spreading their own propaganda/civil disobedience (defying their teachers/administration peacefully), how they can get a job, what learning is really about, what growing up is not about, give them inspiration that there is a full life out there for them...Man, I'm getting excited just thinking about it. I could really change someone's life ya know?

Contact me in 10 years and let's see if that statement holds up again.


Let me leave off with this: You are entiled to your opinion. I don't expect you to ever agree with me. I am only sharing my own perspective. Having an opinion is one of the many choces we do have.

Don't try to pull this rhetoric on me. You attempted to bring down my message by equating my political, philosophical opinions etc. with matters of "taste" such as your favorite ice cream flavor.

Sure, you've got opinions, but expect as much criticism as humanly possible when you state them, especially if you're going to color your opinions with insulting condescension and naivety.


*Edit* Is it just me or did some of the posts in this thread get deleted?

[Boxcar]

SOmehow posted without meaning to do so. The forum is being weird tonight...

[Boxcar]

Why do you keep reading between my lines. There is nothing there. I didn’t put any underlying or deeper meanings in the words. So, isn’t looking for the subliminal putting words in my mouth?

I’m not smart or patient enough to play mind games.

I am also not naïve. My opinions are born out of experience.

If I sounded insensitive or condescending, I did not intend to be this.

Of course, I understand there are external circumstances that impact individuals both negatively and positively.

Yet, you can only be out of control for so long. When everything around you is not in your control, you need to turn inward. Controlling your own meanings, perceptions, and reactions is a lifeline.

Are you going to let others destroy you? Are you really going to lose yourself to their comments? Are you going to act with angry or understanding?

That is what I meant by hard truths. You have got to take ownership to survive. In life, people will do things intentionally or unintentionally that hurt you. Do you want to be a victim? I don’t like that term. It takes away that person’s power to get through all the horrible things. Seeing yourself as a pawn is not good.

Have you heard of the Symbolic Interactionist Model? It goes along the lines of what I am trying to explain. We assign meanings to the experiences we encounter. Only we decide what to believe about experiences.

I just don’t see how a person can avoid drowning unless they turn inward to themselves. You are not always going to have external supports. Someday you may turn around, and there will be no one there. You have to get through the hard times all by yourself. So, you find that inner strength, and you do it. The only other option is to go down. I refuse to let anyone pull me under. Only I give others the permission to make me feel bad.

This is my meaning. I never said it was easy. In fact, I said is was evtremely difficult. However, I need to take that responsibility. What else can I do? Take drugs? Complain that society is against me? Search for love in sex?

It isn’t fair to judge me. You don’t know what I’ve encountered or how I’ve survived. Some people get by with religion. Some turn to friends. Some see a counselor. Some look inward. I dnn't feel like makeing myself vulnerable by explaining some of my own experiences.

How is it that you can say my opinions are about ice cream, but your ideas are great revelations? No, I’m not the most articulate person nor am I skilled at debate. I’ve never cared to try and make someone see my point of view. I actually don’t know how I got into this conversation. It really isn’t my thing. Nonetheless, that doesn’t make what I say any less than that of anyone else.

[Clix]

I'd like to point out that not all dichotomies are false. *shrug* That's all.

[55555]

I'd like to point out that not all dichotomies are false. *shrug* That's all.
This is true.

At boxcar:

Well okay, you can only go so far with "reading in between the lines" understandably. I'll stop. :) I really like literature and I've read a ton of Chekhov's short stories and of course, the author isn't going to come out and say, "Here is the theme."

I guess what I was trying to say (in that specific part of my original posts) was that there are shades of grey. You are affected by your environment, but that level varies and you have to judge on a case-by-case basis because there's so many different situations.

I still contest in general that the culture we live in is mostly damaging and I don't see how you can argue that a child is not brainwashed if you're pounding meaningless messages into their head from kindergarten through graduation. "Go to college.", "You need a job.", "You live in the best country in the world.", "You have to do all this work, just because I said so." We're teaching our kids to be brainless, uninventive slaves. Not only that but we hold their hand through everything. Everything in this culture from marriage, to education has been commodified. Everything is bought and sold as a commodity within the economy.

I made a mistake in my previous post. Actually, by the time an American reaches the age of 18, they have watched 22,000 hours of television and 750,000 TV and print advertisements. I wonder how much the average American has read by the time they've reached 18? It's got to be a scary figure. Tell me with a straight face this has minimal effect on how one eventually conducts their life.

When I say that education has become a commodity I mean, children have this nonsense idea pounded into their head that the only thing that matters in life is being "successful" which ultimately amounts to high status (as judged by the general society around them) or high wealth. You need to work hard in school to get good grades so you can go to a good college so you can take that stupid piece of paper to an employer and secure yourself as a cog in the machine. All the while everyone is commending you on your "success" when nothing actually human is going on in this. In all honesty, our lives have been commodified.

I'm sure you've heard of the term "McDonaldization". It's that feeling that travelers get when they're in a foreign country. They realize that different parts of the world aren't that much different. The reason is because of the way our culture has been shaped by the impetus of economic forces of mass culture, mass consumption, mass production... There isn't even really a "western world" or an "eastern world" anymore. It's just one machine that goods that flow from the producer to the consumer. That's it. No mention of meaningful human moments.

My main contention is that ultimately school is just an arm of economic forces. It has nothing to do with education or learning or nurturing. The entire school system up to the university acts as a sieve for sorting workers and shipping them off to employers to produce for the economy. A big reason why public schooling is still mandatory is that it's become almost necessary for the economy. It's our backbone. Parents need somewhere to put their kids when they go off to work right? The kids need someway to eventually become a cog like their parents right?

Has nothing to do with anything meaningful and human. School is just another form of job slothing. I don't care how you dress it up.

On a personal level, I chose not to go through with it. I don't care about school. And ya, I actually feel proud of myself for quitting and I knew there would be consequences and I was prepared to meet them. It's only been several months since I quit, but when I finally distance myself from, mostly my father, I really think I'm going to have a generally interesting and more fulfilling life than if I just went with the crowd. And yes, this is a kind of rebellion against it and I will continue rebelling.

Hah. Some people call me young and naive for saying that, but I can point to plenty of people 3 times my age who think just like I'm thinking right now. Also, all I have to do is point my finger right back at them and ask, "How many times have you simply went with the crowd instead of following what you honestly would rather do?" If there's a will, there's a way. <<< Eternal words.


How is it that you can say my opinions are about ice cream, but your ideas are great revelations?

I explained this wrong. I was trying to say not all opinions are created equally. There are matters of judgment (will Mccain or Obama be a better president, does God exist, what's the best way to schedule my classes) and then there's matters of taste (my favorite color is blue). Often people will try to pull this "you've got your opinion and I've got mine" to cop out of an argument. Some opinions are better than others. That's all.

[Helix]

For a second, I thought I could escape whining children even online. The dream floats away....lol

[MsCoffeeLover]

Forgive me now as to what may come out may be more than originally planned, and it may cross over and address a few different people's posts.

First, as teachers our jobs are to teach. Bottom line. Our jobs or any adult, for that matter, is not to spend our time explaining ourselves to children who still have a lot to learn. We would never get anything done if we stopped to explain every little thing. We, as adults, know that you are going through a particular phase in the developmental process. You are doing what you do at that age, and most teachers can look beyond that. That gives no one the right to be a turd to anyone. We owe explanations to no one, but the fact that someone took a moment to explain something that you will learn in life eventually separates them from the rest of the general population. Many of us are humoring you and laughing because while you think you know everything, which many of us thought we did when we were younger, reality will slap you harder in the face than most. The loudest people with the most answers gets the hardest slap of all.

Another thing, everyone is different, and not all teachers teach the same way. Too many people are looking through this small window within their daily views. Well, that window is not the window of the entire school, county, state, or country. That is a window some people choose to see and think that applies to the rest of the world, when it does not.

Another thing, everyone has a lot of answers, but once you get into a situation, things aren't as easily solved. Anyone can say what the education system is doing wrong, and anyone can also say what needs to be done to fix it, but no one can say with certainty how to fix it because there is always more to something. People do what they do within the guidelines that are given. People that care will do whatever they can in whatever way they can--even the turds--People won't continue to care or do whatever they can if the person does not care about themselves or want to try, but I am sure a teacher has given them countless chances before then. Some of us even ask the students directly.

Another thing, if you are bored in school or in life in general. That doesn't mean school or your daily surroundings are boring. It means YOU are boring. You bring to the table what you want to get out of life, and you haven't brought anything worthwhile to anyone or anything.

Another thing, you aren't proud of the fact that you quit school at all. You quit school and need an excuse to justify your reasoning.

Whenever I run across a student like some of the students in this very thread, their next assignment is to plan a lesson and teach it. This has only happened maybe three times, but once these kids saw what goes on, what kinds of planning it takes, and then deal with the students in the class, they give you a lot less grief after that.

People think teachers are supposed to teach and raise other people's kids? Teachers do way more than teach and have lots of little bonds along wtih the way with just about every child. Most of us take our jobs very seriously and have to remind ourselves to live our own lives and separate personal from the professional. Just because someone feels failed by a particular teacher or by the public education system doesn't mean it failed them at all. It also doesn't mean that by that definition, everything else is a failure. That is just the way negative people like to look at things.

What it really means is that someone along the way had a specific expectation of teachers and school, and that expectation was not met exactly like they had it crafted in their mind. People are ready to blame others when something doesn't go right because it is easier to blame someone else than to admit that each person may have a hand in what goes on in their lives.

When you think you are failed by something, please remember that no one else failed you but you. At least, not your teachers. Your parents could have probably been more involved and done things a little differently, but they have a tough job too.

People with these kinds of attitudes walked in the door expecting more than what one person can give them or walked in the door planning to fail or want things to happen for them without the effort. People with these attitudes expect to do the same thing day in and day out and expect to get a different result, yet actually seem baffled when they get the same results.

People in general are helpful and very willing. If people are looking to other people or things to get what they want out of life, they are destined to a life of failures. People need to take ownership and accountablility of what they are personally responsible for and become proactive--admit what we need, admit when we make a mistake, admit when we are wrong, admit when we need help, and admit we are human. Life does funny things after that.

Man, my cup of coffee was better used elsewhere.

[Helix]

Whenever I run across a student like some of the students in this very thread, their next assignment is to plan a lesson and teach it. This has only happened maybe three times, but once these kids saw what goes on, what kinds of planning it takes, and then deal with the students in the class, they give you a lot less grief after that.

I actually used this technique the other day. One of the varsity football players started insulting me during class, saying "I wasn't teaching" because I was using a digital representation of a complex hydrocarbon and then writing notes for them to understand it better. I told him to get up and teach it since evidently, he was so good at organic chemistry. The whole class REALLY got the point after that. Sometimes bluntness is what people need to realize what the ultimate purpose is.

[55555]

People think teachers are supposed to teach and raise other people's kids? Teachers do way more than teach and have lots of little bonds along wtih the way with just about every child.
Stopped reading here. You missed the point.

I actually used this technique the other day. One of the varsity football players started insulting me during class, saying "I wasn't teaching" because I was using a digital representation of a complex hydrocarbon and then writing notes for them to understand it better. I told him to get up and teach it since evidently, he was so good at organic chemistry. The whole class REALLY got the point after that. Sometimes bluntness is what people need to realize what the ultimate purpose is.

It doesn't matter whether the student can teach well or not. You don't need to be a good teacher to know whether or not the teacher is any good.

[MsCoffeeLover]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, buddy joe, but you have missed all points by posting on a teacher forum and not being a teacher.

If you stopped reading at a certain time or during a certain post and were unwilling to read the rest or hear anyone out, well, that goes to show how close minded you are.

Anything that you can say after this point on is really being laughed at by the other teachers on this board and are hardly deemed credible. You can keep posting away to make whatever point you are trying to make, but you will never really be able to make it on a teacher forum where just about everyone here is a teacher and you are not.

The other folks were just nicer about it, but, let's be realistic, you are not a teacher with a gripe about teachers and the system and no true teaching experience to back anything up. That is the bottom line.

You can keep on keepin' on, but you are only making yourself look bad. I'm just sayin'.

[55555]

Anything that you can say after this point on is really being laughed at by the other teachers on this board and are hardly deemed credible.
BAHAHAHAHA
I don't know whether to ROFL for facepalm. Can you honestly tell me how a human being be that stupid?
*edit* I've decided to facepalm.
http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/c/c2/Not-again-picard2.jpg

[Brit]

555 -- congrats for questioning the establishment. It is your state-given right. Keep questioning. But remember the old adage -- you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

No one minds a well-asked question. tirades, on the other hand, are very teen-angst-y.

been there, felt that, thought that. I understand your angst. (don't say you're not angst-y. You're angst-y. and don't tell me that "angst-y" isn't a word. It's a word if I want it to be. I am a linguistic follower of Carroll's Humpty Dumpty. I pay my words well enough to do what I want with them. If you don't "get" that, go educate yourself.). Every generation fights against the established system. Every generation thinks it can do better. That's why we progress. I wish you and yours luck. Me and mine are doin' the best we can within the limitations we have. we will set things up for you, we'll loosen those restrictions, so that when it's your turn, you CAN change things. Remember -- we're not against you.

[Thoughtful_Lupine]

Request a conference with both mom and Junior to find a solution to the problem.

I'm willing to bet that Junior isn't nearly as anxious for extra, more challenging work as mom is for him to have it.

This is probably the best advice in the entire thread, though I think it's implications are slightly inaccurate. In some cases, yes, you have a kid that just doesn't want to do any work and is looking for an excuse. But if you honestly think the kid's a bright one, then wouldn't you expect a little more from him/her than that? Maybe it isn't necessarily the kid not wanting to learn, but rather the material, or the method of teaching that the student finds uninteresting. I think looking at yourself as critically as you do the student is extremely important in situations like these.

Also, perhaps more of the same work, or longer math problems isn't the answer. That would be just piling on more of the same work that the student detests. It would be consuming more of the student's time rather than actually sparking their interests in a subject. Which would obviously produce even more spite in the child for your class. Sometimes, with students who have a radical opinion and are obviously very different from the majority of their peers, you need to have an equally radical method of teaching to reach these students.


The problem with this student is that he didn't do any work at all! You can't differentiate nothing! I told her I would love to challenge him but he has to show me what he can do first! She told me that if he doesn't think the work has value, he won't do it. I reminded her that he is 12 years old and until he has a degree and his own class room, he doesn't get to determine what is of value. That felt so good to say...and so true! He is in seventh grade this year. I wonder if they have anything of value for him to do. Doubt it.

I can't say anything about your particular situation because I wasn't there, and every situation has it's own unique qualities. But I'm willing to bet you can't apply this to every unmotivated student everywhere. It's just as possible that a student has become so discouraged with the school system, that they simply cannot bring themselves to do any work. Teen years can be very stressful as you should all know since you experienced them, and some have a lot harder time than others. It would be stupid as hell to take the "bite me" attitude. That's just a cop-out and showing you're not willing to accommodate people's differences as a teacher. If everyone were to conform to your methods without questioning or complaining, this world would be a very bland place, more so than it already is.

I'd suggest using that creative quality that us humans seem to be so proud of possessing but don't seem to utilize it as much as we like to think. Do something to get these kids interested, if they become interested, they will not be as objected to doing a bit of work, because the work won't feel as much like "work" to them at all.

The bold text is the perfect example of the epitome of failure that many teachers perpetuate. It's just as stupid to invalidate someone's complaints and opinions because they don't possess a degree as it is to completely accept their opinion as absolute truth if they did. To me, that screams another cop-out method so you don't have to take a look at your own curriculum and teaching methods, and put the blame on the student's unwillingness to cooperate or conform.

Of course, there will always be some kids that are just wanting an excuse to get out of work, but the same could be said for teachers looking for an excuse to get out of thinking of a different technique to inspire their troubled students. But if you're the adult and you "know what's of value that the student doesn't," then you should show it.


Challenging sometimes just comes down to the amount of "busy work" they're given to reach their goal in curriculum objectives.

I apologize if I seem harsh towards the kid, but I resent how parents "blame" teachers every time their kids don't do something, when in reality it's the society around them which their behavior is considered the "norm."

Nowadays, yes, that is what "challenging" comes down to. And it shouldn't. When I was in High School, I completed six weeks worth of work in one week, many would consider that "challenging," and it was. But I didn't actually learn a single bit more than I would've if I did it on the regular schedule. More work does not necessarily mean more learning, all that means is it consumes more time. I think a different method is necessary in these types of situations. But too often, kids are given more work, more tests, more bullshit, and expected to come out more developed because of it. The only thing they really learned is how that in life, you're forced to do things that you don't want to do. Which definitely has it's place in society, but is that really the philosophical goal of teachers? To get kids to realize that life is a bunch of shit they don't want to do? Throughout school, I always assumed that it was there for us to learn, to understand the world around us, as well as ourselves. But can we honestly say that's what school does anymore? And if you can, I urge you to take a moment to question that belief.

The most valuable thing I can say that my teachers have ever taught me is to question everything I could, even myself. The big problem is I think many adults seem to lose sight of this and end up taking the "know-it-all" attitude that they criticize so much in their students. Both sides of the spectrum, kids and adults, should learn a little humility and take the time to question themselves as much as they do others.

(To be continued... sorry about the length, just gotta say what I gotta say. ;) )

[55555]

edit: accidently posted

[Thoughtful_Lupine]

(Continued...)


First, as teachers our jobs are to teach. Bottom line. Our jobs or any adult, for that matter, is not to spend our time explaining ourselves to children who still have a lot to learn. We would never get anything done if we stopped to explain every little thing. We, as adults, know that you are going through a particular phase in the developmental process. You are doing what you do at that age, and most teachers can look beyond that. That gives no one the right to be a turd to anyone. We owe explanations to no one, but the fact that someone took a moment to explain something that you will learn in life eventually separates them from the rest of the general population. Many of us are humoring you and laughing because while you think you know everything, which many of us thought we did when we were younger, reality will slap you harder in the face than most. The loudest people with the most answers gets the hardest slap of all.

You say your job is to teach, bottom line. But does teaching not include explaining things? If Christopher Columbus never stopped to question if the world was really flat, or if Albert Einstein never stopped to question the world of Physics, where would we be now? As a teacher, it is your job to stop and explain things to the students. If the student doesn't understand, or disagrees, he should speak up. It is only then will he, and maybe even you, gain a better understanding of what you're discussing. The point of teaching is to explain the logic (or even illogic, depending on the subject) behind it all, not to feed students information with a spoon and slap down any questioning of your lesson.

Yes, you don't owe anyone an explanation per se, but as a teacher, I think you should feel a personal obligation to explain things to students, since after all, the desire to teach in it's purest form should be the desire for everyone (even yourself) to learn and understand. If you don't, then you become the fascist propagandists that expect people to accept your ideas/lesson without any challenge. And once put into those terms, I know none of us wants to become that person.

Also, what do you mean by "reality will slap you harder in the face than most?" What is the point of making a comment like that but to try and belittle the student's opinion to invalidate what they're saying? Sure, they may act like a know-it-all, but if they are actually a know-it-all that's simply full of shit, but if you make a comment like that, you become exactly like they are except on the opposite side of the spectrum. It's easy to say "you think you know everything 'cause you're a kid, but you don't" and imply that your experience in life actually does mean you know everything. But in reality, that makes you sound just as ignorant as they make themselves to be. I believe it was Socrates that said, "The only thing that I know is I don't know anything." A metaphysical quote, yes, but in this context, I believe it fits.



Another thing, everyone is different, and not all teachers teach the same way. Too many people are looking through this small window within their daily views. Well, that window is not the window of the entire school, county, state, or country. That is a window some people choose to see and think that applies to the rest of the world, when it does not.

Another thing, everyone has a lot of answers, but once you get into a situation, things aren't as easily solved. Anyone can say what the education system is doing wrong, and anyone can also say what needs to be done to fix it, but no one can say with certainty how to fix it because there is always more to something...

Another thing, if you are bored in school or in life in general. That doesn't mean school or your daily surroundings are boring. It means YOU are boring. You bring to the table what you want to get out of life, and you haven't brought anything worthwhile to anyone or anything.

Another thing, you aren't proud of the fact that you quit school at all. You quit school and need an excuse to justify your reasoning.

In the first paragraph, I could easily replace "teachers" with "students" and "teach" with "learn." It's a two-way street here, some students are guilty of only seeing through the narrow chinks of their own mental caverns, yes, but the same thing could just as easily be said about many teachers that take the "bite me" attitude as discussed earlier.

With the second paragraph, I agree, pointing out the problem is going to be much easier than finding a solution. But would telling students to "just deal with it" be better than trying to find a solution? That will only perpetuate more of the same monotonous process, and you will keep hearing the same complaints from the students because nothing has changed due to no one trying.

Also, the first and third paragraph seem to contradict themselves. You say that not everyone's the same, that each situation has it's own unique qualities to it, and this is completely true. But if you actually believe this, then why do you apply the "if you're bored, it means you're boring, not your surroundings" to everyone? Maybe someone has a legitimate reason for being bored in your class. Perhaps it's not only their problem. The third paragraph just seems like another cop-out so you don't have to take a critical look at your own curriculum or teaching methods. The fourth paragraph, I find to be another contradiction and a cop-out. Not all people who detest the public education system are high school drop-outs, and it seems you're only attempting to invalidate their opinion via the use of ad hominems.


I'm trying not to take sides here. Both the student, and the teacher can be equally at fault when there's a problem with the learning situation. Sometimes it's the teacher's curriculum or methods that do not work for the student, sometimes the student is just looking for an excuse to not do the work. It all depends on the situation. But pointing fingers at the students is just as immature as the students pointing fingers at you. It would be wise for everyone to take a step back and look at themselves when this kind of thing happens, with an open-mind too, because the hardest head that we often try to get through is in fact, our own. If we really are the mature, experienced adults that we claim to be, then we have to give both sides of the argument an equal chance while trying to incorporate our own prejudices as little as possible.

[Bananas]

I think teachers have increasing frustration nowadays. It would be so easy to try a radical means to reach those students in need of something different. Teachers have a classroom of students to educate. If I had the approach that would electrify that radical student, I would have a number who would panic at being outside their comfort zone and overwhelmed. So many of my resource students need the routine in their expectations. So many things are out of their control in their home lives, that keeping within the parameters allows school to be their safe place in knowing what will happen and feel secure.

The best I can do is to vary my lessons to reach all the learning styles and intelligences. When I am able, I expand my plans to agree to suggestions my students have. I rotate so that all needs are met at some point in the week. I cannot meet all needs at all times.

Teachers have to answer to the school board. Teachers explain themselves to the administration. Teachers communicate and explain to the parents of the students. Teachers also explain the reasoning and need to students. I will try to explain the value of the learning to my students. I must make use of my instruction time, though. If I take too much time trying to explain why we are doing it, I am not facilitating the academics. Students are fine to question, but we all need to move forth. If a student justifies not doing something because they don't see the value, they make a choice. I would hazard a guess that most professions in life require tasks being done by employees who see little value in it. It is done because the chain of command requires it and one chooses to keep their job. Students do well to know why they are doing something and to ask questions. That does not mean that they need to argue or be disrespectful.

I put in extra hours this school year learning a new program and doing the paperwork for it. It will remain to be seen if it is worth it. It will document efforts to raise those test scores.

Meeting some students' needs will be beneficial to them while it will not be in some other students' interests in the class. I can do my best to adapt, but someone will come up short.

[Thoughtful_Lupine]

Bananas:

That's all students can really ask you to do. Arguing philosophical grievances with the whole system can only be for the sake of developing intelligence from a short-term perspective. I realize that the bureaucratic system that we're all subjected to makes all this very difficult, so it's understandable that there are limitations to how radical one's methods can be. Long-term though, having these sorta debates with students and actually taking the time to give them a valid response will help them develop their views and themselves as human beings.

Kids will be kids. Most of them are driven by hormones and are at a time in their lives where they begin to realize that a lot of what life and society is, is actually a big illusory crock, and no doubt, they're angry about it. I know I was. What they're still learning is how to productively voice their anger, and honestly, many of them aren't quite mature enough to do so effectively. But I think it's our job as adults to try and understand their positions as best as we can. Instead of passing off their grievances and opinions with a statement like, "I used to be a kid, and I know how you feel, but you'll get over it." We should use that same experience to empathize with them. Maybe we didn't feel as strongly when we were their age, but most of us can sorta see where they're coming from because we experienced a variation of what they're experiencing now.

Kids also have a tendency to be oppositional, and it's easy to return opposition with more opposition, even if your intentions are not oppositional to begin with at all. We're human, just as the kids are, but I think we gotta try our best to keep in mind the time of life they're in, and the general mindset they tend to have. Of course, I'm not saying all kids are like this, that'd be making generalizations. We should no doubt treat them as responsible, intelligible kids, if we do that, then they'll assuredly feel a lot more open to compromise. I think that's one thing that can really bother kids actually, there's not much of a worse feeling to a kid than feeling like they're below someone, that they're being condescended to, or that someone else knows how to run their lives better than they do (even if the latter may be somewhat true).

Teachers aren't perfect, teachers are human. So what Bananas said is all kids can really ask teachers to do at this point. If they feel strongly enough, they'll keep working to change what they believe to be fundamentally wrong with the education system. Such is how society progresses. But I'd say that teachers are a very important element to any society, and more importantly is a teacher's contribution to that society by teaching their kids how to question things, how to think for themselves, how to stand up for what they believe in when no one else will. The lesson that we have to do things we don't want to do is important, especially in the kind of society we live in today, but beyond that lesson, they need to learn that they must do these undesired tasks so they can do what they want to do, change what they want to change. They won't see the deeper meaning of the "you must do things you don't want to" lesson, if all they're hearing is "Don't argue with me, Jr. I'm the teacher, and what I say goes."

Great post though, Bananas, I enjoyed reading it. By the sounds of it, I think you're doing a great job as a teacher.

[Oneiromancy]

Hey I wanted to say thanks to Bananas for the good post. Never been a teacher but teachers do have to go through quite a bit which is unfortunate. The bureaucracy of the entire system stifles actual learning which is why I think the entire thing needs to be rebuilt from the ground up.

Also, 55555 and Lupine and Boxcar require a thumbs up.

[AWOL]

Hey! Long time no see, huh. Also, Chef Dave, do not flame the following post please.

Have any of you looked at School Survival recently? Probably not. Surge in possible suicides. I agree you have a frustrating job, but merely because the child is frustrated, we are forced to go to a place we didn't want to in the first place and learn things we may or may not see valuable. I for one, learnt most of what I know outside of school, the things I learn in school, I quickly forget.

Ask, the child what they dislike about school, if it's boredom, REALLY, boredom then challenge them, if they dislike the subject then ask them what subjects they like, if they didn't get enough sleep the night prior then let them sleep. It's simple, you won't have your frustration levels downed until ours are.

[Aziz]

55555,

I admire you for having an opinion. I am sorry that most other teachers on here have attributed what is a well-supported opinion to your adolescence. While I do think that your opinions are a bit extremist, I think it is great that 1) you are willing to express them and stand up for yourself and 2) that you are living them, rather than preaching one thing and living another.

I think it would beneficial to all of us if we put age aside and rather than calling off 55555's opinions as "teenage-angst-y." Why don't we consider them the same way we would consider a fellow colleague's opinion? I know plenty of adults that have very extremist opinions, and yet we do not attribute those opinions to their adulthood. In short, I'm not so sure it is fair to 55555 to keep pounding the message "you're just a kid." Aren't we all just kids in life? We all have much to learn.

I would also like to mention that I hesitate to blindly believe, even for myself, that the teacher is always right because s/he is the one with the degree. When I was a student, there were many times when the teacher was given the mic and I was left voiceless. So even though we hold our degrees, let's not hog the mic. Keep passing it around, folks.

Onto your opinion, 55555. I'm sorry that your experience in the educational system has been such that you think education is solely for economic purposes. I have many human-moments throughout the day with my students, and I hope that you can someday meet a teacher or professor that shares some human moments with you. I agree with you that in many aspects, education has become a machine for producing young adults with degrees ready to contribute to the workforce. Each time a teacher hands out a busywork sheet or teaches an opinion, it dawns on me how education has become a commodity. However, there are also those moments where I can tell a student is making a connection, where a student opens my mind, and those to me feel like human moments. So I agree with you that education is largely a commodity but I don't think it is all commodity. There is still some "real-ness" there--you just have to find it.

-Aziz

[kingrichie]

I don't think he really hates your class, he just hates school in general. He's just using you as an excuse. Focus on the positive things parents and students have said about you and your class.