Quick question for the teachers out there.

[BobManPerson]

I was part of a group of about four people. We decided to go into the gym after lunch (we're allowed to; it's an alternative to going outside) and play basketball. When we got inside, people were playing dodgeball. The dean walked in literally a minute later, and every single person in the gym, regardless of what he/she did, got a detention.

I, as well as my friends, didn't partake in anything going on in the gym. Yet we were still given detentions.

Is there any specific reason why teachers blame the innocent, simply because he/she can't prove that the innocent didn't do anything?

[Clix]

Try watching Collateral Damage. Sometimes you find yourself in an unpleasant situation that is not the direct result of your own actions. Your response to the situation may be all that you can control. You've got to do your best with what you have.

A wiser alternative might be for the administration to decide that if all students do not follow the rules for using the gym after lunch, no students will be able to use the gym after lunch. On the other hand, they may have felt that a single detention would be preferable to the lost privilege.

[thunderstruck]

It doesn't just happen in school. We tend to focus on school for those problems, but it happens all the time in life as well. Getting accused for something you didn't do. It happens.

[Oak Tree]

Oh boo hoo. Go to your detention and quit whining.

[Chef Dave]

Is there any specific reason why teachers blame the innocent, simply because he/she can't prove that the innocent didn't do anything?

This is a patently unfair generalization that assumes all educators behave this way based upon your extremely limited experience.

To answer your question about why you were punished, did it not occur to you that if you saw students doing something inappropriate, that you should have distanced yourself from these people?

Since I was not there, I only have your word regarding the event that occurred.

Even if you and your friends were not actively involved, if you were screaming and shouting and egging the other students on, then yes, you were indirectly involved because such behavior is unseemly and inherently disruptive.

As Oak Tree suggested, boo-hoo. Take your lumps and go to detention. In the future, try and exercise more common sense regarding where you actually need to be when other students are violating school rules.

[SiobhanMarie]

An unprovoked discipline justifies why students think teachers can be arrogant, so Oak_tree, I hope you are joking. I was continually blamed for situations in school when other people got away with things or had less of a punishment, because my teachers were favouritist and arrongant people... it isn't fair.

It does happen, however that does not make it right and there should be some level of equality between the teachers point of view and the students.

[SiobhanMarie]

Oh and Chef Dave; if i were a teacher I would investiage rather than automatically assume as I do not think myself in a position to make judgement until I have an idea of the full situation.

And I just want to say that BobManPerson said nothing to complain about the punishment but a mere question about why this may happen.

May I also point out that what is stated is that they are allowed to participate in activities in the gym during the lunch hour, so I don't know if your comment regarding the violation of school rules is appropriate.

[Want2Teach]

If students are to be allowed in the gym, then there should be a person to supervise them.

I don't hold to punishing a group of people for the actions of a few. If, as a teacher, you have the power to punish, you have the responsibility to know exactly what is going on.

I can honestly say that I was never punished for something that I didn't do, either at home or at school. I chalk this up to always being around adults who were doing their jobs as parents, teachers or adults in other supervisory roles. This developed a strong sense of fairness in me, and I attempt to pass this on to children I come in contact with.

[Boxcar]

I fully agree with Chef Dave on this.

I'll leave it at that instead of going off on a tanget and pulling out a soapbox.

[Chef Dave]

An unprovoked discipline justifies why students think teachers can be arrogant...

You are assuming that this event occurred precisely as the student described it. I do not accept this assumption and find it difficult to believe that the dean of all people would summarily punish everyone without cause.

Without having been there, I must assume that the gym was in chaos and that students who were not actively involved were active spectators which makes them culpable.

If I am mistaken in this assumption, I will reiterate that if the student was in proximity to other students who were violating school rules, the student in question should not have been there.

[smithmt]

Boxcar, I have given you a very nice soapbox on which to use, I think you should use it more often!

I also agree with Chef Dave...

SiobhanMarie
Sometimes investigating gets you problems...
I had students who threw a wadded ball of paper during an assembly in the gym. Parents, statesmen and the press were in our school for this assembly. I pulled out the kids who I thought threw the ball, only to have him blame it on someone else. I pulled out the entire group of kids siting in that area. Everyone said this one kid did it. I gave all of them a lecture about how there are parents, state representatives and my gosh, the PRESS... and "how would you like the highlight on the news at six to be how our school can not behave?" etc.
the story came out that all of them encouraged this kid, so I set all of the kids in the office and wrote them all up.

At the end of the assembly, one of my Teen-Leadership students came to me and asked if the whole event was centered on the paper ball. She told me that the one kid who placed the blame on the other kid (the one I first pulled out) actually threw the ball. Had I just went with it, I would have gotten it right, instead, I traumatized a kid who was an outsider already, and gave a bully an easy target.

Sometimes, as a teacher, you have no other recourse. Possibly, If I were the admin, I would have just shut down the gym for a week, or for the semester, but I'm not the admin, and I would never tell another teacher, or an administrator that what they did was wrong, unless it was either Illegal, or damaging to a student's self-esteem, or well-being.

Which Serving a detention for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, is not permanently damaging.

and this was NOT a quick question...:)

[Oak Tree]

I'm not joking. It's just a detention. If he got hit with something he didn't deserve so what? I mean, if he signed up here just to bellyache about it he needs to go change his panties and quit being a baby. Sometimes you have to punish the group to get things under control. I too got nailed with stuff like that all the time and but I didn't go home crying to mommy about it (which you know this kid did). Call the principal!! Waaa. I hate that stuff. I don't care if kids think I'm arrogant. That's the way it should be. They're not my equals.

[Chef Dave]

I am actually quite surprised to find myself agreeing with Oak Tree. His gruff response could have been a tad more sensitive but in essence I do agree with him.

I also think that children should hang out and vent at their own age appropriate websites ... and before BobManPerson gets his feathers ruffled, I really don't care whether you're 7 or 17. I'm old enough to regard any teenager as a child.

[SiobhanMarie]

Chef Dave; why are you doubting that this event happened... because the person asking is a student, not a teacher? Let's pretend the event happened exactly as what is being said, as situations like this sometimes do. The question is why would all students be punished for something that only a few were doing, if they were allowed to in the first place. If there was no supervision, I see that as the school/teacher on duties problem because the it's not the student's responsibility to seek supervision.

And Boxcar, I think that you should voice why you agree with Chef Dave so that others can see your viewpoint, because currently I see alot of ridicule and disbelieff as this question is coming from a student, rather than a teacher.

[SiobhanMarie]

This student is seeking advice from professionals in the field that could give them insight into how they could handle future situations or to deal with what unfairly happens. I can't believe you are saying cry baby, waa, waa... how belittling are you guys? Did you never feel that something was unjust and you wanted to know why, especially if it directly happened to you?

We are all people; no one is better no matter age, size, profession or any other category that you can come up with, however in the school situation teachers are given a privildge to punish and should take this role seriously as every step you make will impact on someone's life. You can't think that because you are a teacher you should have no intent of listening to the students and getting all sides of the story rather than assuming that you are right!

[Student4life]

This student is seeking advice from professionals in the field that could give them insight into how they could handle future situations or to deal with what unfairly happens.

Yes, the student is seeking advice. That is fine. The problem here is that its a STUDENT in a TEACHERS forum. If it was a student and teachers forum it would be fine. But as this is specifically a teachers forum students should try to find there own forum, there are plenty of them. Yes the forum is open to everyone, but it makes this forum not as good because atleast I am not as willing to post certain things if students are constantly going to be on here, I don't know about other people.

[Chef Dave]

This student is seeking advice from professionals in the field that could give them insight into how they could handle future situations or to deal with what unfairly happens.

I'm sorry, but I don't agree with you. I think the student in question is using this forum to whine about how unfairly his school has treated him.

If he has concerns about the way he was treated, he should take it up with his parents or the school counselor or the dean. I would also recommend that he find an age appropriate forum where his whimpering will no doubt receive a great deal more sympathy.

As to why I would doubt his version of events, I've been a teacher for 18 years. It's been my experience that most students who claim to be as innocent as the driven snow are in fact shading the truth.

I suspect that although this person may not have been directly engaged in inappropriate behavior, he may have been an active spectator. At the very least, he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and should have exercised better judgment by leaving.

As Oak Tree suggested, he should simply suck it up, take the detention, and move on instead of acting like a pathetic cry baby. Writing posts about the U.S. Constitution and the unfairness of schools is unnecessary drama.

To be candid, I really don't care what he thinks or how he feels. If I have a choice between believing a dean or believing a student, neither of whom I've ever met, I'd go with the dean simply because this person presumably has academic credentials and years of experience.

And for pity's sake ... we're only talking about DETENTION.

When I was a kid, we had corporal punishment. Students who misbehaved had their knuckles rapped with a ruler by their teachers. Students who misbehaved enough to be sent to the office were bent over a desk and walloped with a big wooden paddle. When we got home, our angry parents were waiting for us having received a call from the school and we'd be punished even further.

So this kid was given detention. So what? To hear him talk about it, you'd think this was a major civil rights violation. :eek:

Enough with the drama ...

Sheesh ...

[thunderstruck]

I wasn't aware that the site was specifically not for students. If you can point me to somewhere that says this, please do so. The last thing I want to do is to just go and invade somebody's forum.

Edit: But I do think that unjustified rudeness has been displayed to the OP, who was cordial in his post...

[Want2Teach]

It doesn't matter whether it was a verbal warning, detention, corporal punishment or capital punishment. The point is that the punishment should be just and deserved.

The person administering the punishment has a responsibility to know for certain that the right person is being punished.

I recognize that life isn't always fair, but a blatant disregard for fairness could be the reason that student have so little respect for teachers.

Again, my parents nor any of my teachers would have punished a child without knowing for a fact that the punishment was just. This included "just detention". For many kids, who take pride in acting responsibly "just detention" is a major thing.

For a teacher to take the attitude that its "just detention" sends a message that the punishment isn't really serious enough to warrant a discussion. If there is no stigma to detention, where is its value as a punishment?

[SiobhanMarie]

I'm sorry, please quote this students' 'whining and seeking of sympathy'... because I do not read that at all... Your comments about acting like a cry baby are harsh because there is nothing in that students post that suggest they are whining, but simply asking.

Has it not occured to you that perhaps they are here seeking advice about how to approach the dean to see it from someone else's perspective before jumping in and seeing what happens? In all honesty, please tell me that if you had a student come up to you and ask why they had been punished for something they didn't do, that you would sit down and justify your actions with the same respect towards that student as you would another adult or teacher?

Chef Dave, I'm sure that in your 18 years of teaching, not every student has been trying to get out of something that they have done - there has to be some that are innocent and if they do not stand up for justice, to which this is within the school system - then they are being pushed down and being told to put up with it; which it what many people on this thread are telling the student to do. Where is the sense of empowerment for students and equalism? It's not fair and I don't think that the first impressions of this incident need to be so negative and judegemental against the student straight away. Teachers can be wrong too.

The dean;s years of experience could possibly be years of unfair punishment towards students however they have gotten away with it because teachers are not listening to the students side and therefore will autmotically take the teachers/deans side.

Punishment has changed, yes, howeve that doesn't mean it's less of a punishment and it's not fair if you do not deserve it.

Also, I'm a student. A student studying teaching; am I not meant to be here?

[Chef Dave]

I wasn't aware that the site was specifically not for students.

Well the title of this site is "Teacherscorner" and not "Teenzone." What were you expecting?

[thunderstruck]

It would help if you weren't rude to me.

I was expecting a teacher community, naturally. As I said, I'm not here to barge in, but for forums, most of them I've been on allow various demographics.

[AWOL]

Unfortunately a lot of you guys are just opening a wider path for the stereotype of evil, ageist teachers. A lot are evil and ageist, but I still hold that not all teachers are. Quite a few people from school survival are thinking you are. Why not prove them wrong. Also, if you don't care if students think you are arrogant, than you don't care that they aren't learning much. People would be a lot smarter if the previous generation were nicer. I agree that not all of you are bad. However their are a few her that I am getting the vibe of the evil, ageist stereotype. Unfortunately, Chef Dave, when I see you I see my grade six teacher, who had favorites, didn't give a damn about students and held tightly the stereotype that children are dumb. Never mind the fact that they might be much more intelligent then you.

[thunderstruck]

Actually, AWOL, the percentage of "evil" teachers (and probably not a very popular opinion to state on this forum) is pretty low.

[Boxcar]

Oh... But I am evil... I make my preschoolers share and take naps... ;)

[Bananas]

This student is seeking advice from professionals in the field that could give them insight into how they could handle future situations or to deal with what unfairly happens. I can't believe you are saying cry baby, waa, waa... how belittling are you guys? Did you never feel that something was unjust and you wanted to know why, especially if it directly happened to you?

We are all people; no one is better no matter age, size, profession or any other category that you can come up with, however in the school situation teachers are given a privildge to punish and should take this role seriously as every step you make will impact on someone's life. You can't think that because you are a teacher you should have no intent of listening to the students and getting all sides of the story rather than assuming that you are right!

I have not commented on this thread because there are too many unknowns to really form my opinion. I have too many questions. Also, this is different than my building. There are aides who do the recess detail at lunch, so teachers are not disciplining students for this time frame. Invariably, I have students come to me about something that happened to them on the bus, in the lunchroom, at recess, etc. Transitions are notorious. I always tell them to go speak to so and so who was in charge.

One thought going through my mind is that what the OP experienced is a valuable lesson in life, unfortunately. Sometimes, "fair" is in the dictionary. Children experiencing these events that they think are not fair (whether they are fair or not) are going to find that they go through them many times as an adult. A ticket to adulthood does not make them go away. It happens all over and adults do need to deal with it.

I typically would not be a union person. I stand by my work. I have seen and heard some horror stories so I know that being a member of our union is a good insurance policy if ever needed.

An adult has to stand on his or her own two feet without having Mom or Dad solve things. How the adult deals with it goes a long way in the place of employment and the intrinsic happiness. The many unpleasant experiences a child goes through shapes him/her, and as they compound, will hopefully leave a healthy adult with a solid foundation. This is why my concerns grow with the "helicopter" parents. Please note that I differentiate by the type of involvement with the parent. It is not that the parent communicates with me and wishes for my time and help. It is the parent who wants me to manipulate anything and everything on my end so that their child will not have to experience something.

Believe me, that is an important part of a parent's job in raising their child. We are to look out for them and teach them many things so they grow up to be successful and happy. I do believe that trying to provide a thick shield to keep everything away does a disservice to their child as it does not let them learn from their mistakes. It is a discerning parent who will widen the base for error as the child grows. They are to gain independence. It is so hard for a parent to stand by to watch their child make mistakes, but it is a very necessary step.

[Aziz]

Dear AWOL and all who may be of AWOL's opinion,

I personally do not think anyone is inherently evil. There are a lot of teachers out there. Some make wise choices, some make uninformed or knowingly poor choices. I have had teachers that inspired me to become a teacher myself; I have had teachers that should be in jail for what they've done to me. I recognize the variety of skill and motivation within our community. I don't think the teacher community consists of a higher percentage of incompetent or uncaring members than any other professional community. I do realize that incompetence or lack of caring often has a larger impact on children and adolescents, which leads to such feelings as "most teachers are evil." I can understand that. Often times teachers mean well, but cannot give what they do not have. Many teachers don't have what it takes.

I think the first step to increasing the number of both well-intentioned and well-informed teachers is to put aside feelings of bitterness and offer constructive criticism. Teachers, just like anyone else, are more open to listening when an idea is presented in a non-aggressive manner. I appreciate your desire to create a dialog between teachers and students, but we will only benefit if we are willing to process our feelings of anger outside of the discussion. Perhaps you could release those feelings with other friends or anyone that is not likely to take it personally. After all, it is not fair to either you or us to place your anger on this forum.

I'd be happy to chat with you in private so that you can process your anger outside of this forum. Just click on the little AOL Instant Messenger icon to PM me.

-Aziz

[Chef Dave]

Unfortunately a lot of you guys are just opening a wider path for the stereotype of evil, ageist teachers. A lot are evil and ageist ...

Ageist? Did you look up this word in your Sesame Street Dictionary? :)

Regarding the concept of evil teachers, what do you know about evil? Do you think that teachers who give homework are evil? Do you think that a teacher who warned a student not to talk is evil because she's now filling out a discipline referral? Is the teacher who assigned you a seat on the far side of the classroom away from your best friend, evil?

I think the word you may be looking for is "unfair." Fairness of course depends upon perspective.

What you may regard as unfair, a teacher might regard as something else entirely.

The child who comes to this website to talk about lying teachers may THINK he's trying to make a difference in the world but an adult might regard this same child as an obnoxious pest.

Am I evil because I think that most children should post at age appropriate sites simply because I come here to converse with other teachers?

If I wanted to talk to kids, I'd go someplace where there are children. I come to this site to converse with adults and fellow educators.

Although I am sure that children may have opinions that are important to them ... I really don't want to hear them. This has less to do with an ageist outlook and more to do with basic qualifications.

What are your life experiences? Are you a certified teacher? Have you gone to college? Have you ever had a job interview? Have you ever taught a class?

I come here to interact with other educators - not whiny little children. If you regard this as "evil," that's unfortunate. If I have hurt your feelings, that's also too bad.

[SiobhanMarie]

I do not believe that anyone is evil; ever ever ever and especially not on this site.

Bananas, when you are told to stand on your own two feet when becoming an adult, you look for alternatives to mum and dad. This is what this is... a question to professionals who might know about this situation and what this student can do; a form of problem solving and I think it's a good first step in becoming independant.

Chef Dave; I really think that you could word your responses with a little more respect (However if you did not point that out I would have just thought it was a spelling mistake because I thought it was meant to be against). I know that this is a 'teachers site' and you would come here expecting to speak with other professionals and adults; however nothing made you comment on this post, so you could have ignored it or just posted quickly a comment saying you think this is inappropriate for a teachers forum rather than to make sarcastic notion at this student who is seeking help.

Now I laughed at your last comment, but I don't think that it is very appropriate for someone who is finding their balance about independance and trying to problem solve unfairness for themselves.

[Boxcar]

Learning to problem solve is great. I know I can always learn more about how to work with others. I just had a lecture in how to get better at "teaming" with other professionals. I benefitted from the infromation presented.

[science_monkey]

Wow, this thread really turned into a riled-up hornet's nest.


I was part of a group of about four people. We decided to go into the gym after lunch (we're allowed to; it's an alternative to going outside) and play basketball. When we got inside, people were playing dodgeball. The dean walked in literally a minute later, and every single person in the gym, regardless of what he/she did, got a detention.

I, as well as my friends, didn't partake in anything going on in the gym. Yet we were still given detentions.

Is there any specific reason why teachers blame the innocent, simply because he/she can't prove that the innocent didn't do anything?

When I read this I took it as a literal question about a not-uncommon scenario. I didn't pick up on any whining or complaints about the nature of the disciplinary action. Whether or not the OP is totally honest with the details of the post is unknown, so rather than speculating or questioning those details I'm just going to answer the question.

BobManPerson, unfortunately things like this happen in life. It's called "guilt by association", and you need to learn it now and learn it well so it doesn't bite you again even worse down the road. As ChefDave said, you could have been either directly or indirectly involved. Simply being in the gym with the knowledge that other students were engaged in an activity that was not permitted, and then not doing anything to either stop the activity or just leaving the area is a case for indirect involvement.

Simply being around people can earn you a label or reputation that matches theirs. It's not always right, but that's how it works in life. It's one of those things you just have to deal with. My advice: if you recognize a bad situation, stay away from it. Same goes for bad people.


Is there any specific reason why teachers blame the innocent, simply because he/she can't prove that the innocent didn't do anything?

Warning! Generalization alert! Not all teachers (or any individual for that matter) will simply blame all involved. In fact, the majority of teachers I have known and currently know (which is quite a large number) do not blame the innocent due to lack of proof. While there are a few that do, many of us try to either seek the proper justice or find an alternative remedy to the situation.

The original post is sparse in details, and as many people have already commented, we don't know the entire truth behind the situation. Perhaps the dean was entirely correct in his/her actions. Perhaps not. If BobManPerson and his friends were in the gym and did nothing to stop the activity or alert a teacher, I'd probably side with the dean. Indirect involvement, as explained previously.


If students are to be allowed in the gym, then there should be a person to supervise them.

Good call, Want2Teach. What's the deal here? Are students allowed access to the gym unsupervised?:eek: Big problem in my opinion. Perhaps it's because I remember some things my friends and I should have gotten in trouble for in high school because we were in the gym unsupervised after school. Especially during the school day students should be monitored if they are in classrooms, and the gym can be considered a classroom as well. I would imagine this whole situation would have been averted had there been supervision

Anyways, BobManPerson, go to your detention and take this ordeal as a lesson learned in life. And stay away from idiots next time, both in and out of the gym.:)

[Boxcar]

Wow! Great job answering! I think that is a great wrap up to this thread/question. This response pretty much says it all. Well, according to me at least...

[SiobhanMarie]

I just have one thing to add; about the generalisation thing, is that it may not necessarily be every teacher (no way it is every teacher!) but when it does happen it is the teacher that enforces it.

I do not think that BobManPerson has any other queries other wise there would be some more posts by him/her here, so I guess all is well!