Middle school vs. High school

[kseed03]

Hi everyone,

I'm a future teacher and trying to decide between teaching at the high school level and the middle school level. I've done my first teaching semester at the hs level and hated it.

Between disrespectful students who lie, cheat, fight back when I was disciplining them, and will do anything to not do their work, to trouble teaching the content level has made me think of trying middle school. I've subbed at the m.s. level and actually enjoyed it. I've heard the horror stories of the hormones at this level, but I feel more comfortable with the content areas and feel students still "respect" their teachers.

Any suggestions or advice? Am I looking at the m.s. level with "rose colored glasses" because of my horrible experience or are there some redeeming qualities to changing levels?

Thanks in advance,
Kerri

[Oak Tree]

First see who hires you then worry about it

[kseed03]

Sorry, I forgot to mention I still have a semester of student teaching to do. If I'm going to make a change in grade level, I need to do it before student teaching begins...

[merrynl]

Go to a middle school for your next placement. Even if you decide you really did like HS better, it's good for you to experience teaching at both levels.

It's hard for us to tell you which level you'd like better. Why? Because we each chose the level we did for different reasons.

[Chef Dave]

kseed03 - I think you should be careful about making generalizations about what children are like at middle school and high school. Nothing is absolute.

There is a world of difference between students at low income schools, students who attend affluent schools in the suburbs, and students in rural areas. These differences are compounded by dozens of other factors.

What is the building administrator like? Is the building administrator someone who supports his or her teachers or is this person someone who follows the path of least resistance in an effort to avoid actually having to make a decision? You'd be surprised at how much influence a single building administrator can have over the entire educational climate of a school.

What are the teachers like? Are they dedicated professionals with advanced degrees and years of teaching experience? Are they veteran instructors who are simply marking time to retirement? Are they largely novice instructors who are looking to gain initial experience before moving on to another job?

Do the schools have intervention programs that identify and provide support services for students who are at risk for dropping out?

Is the school curriculum sufficiently rigorous? Is the school meeting AYP? Are dual high school/college level courses offered? Is there a CTE program in place to provide an alternative to the traditional college prep program?

Other factors include (but are not limited to) community demographics including socio-economic backgrounds, local crime rates, and community attitudes towards education.

Schools come in all types of "flavors." Some schools are wonderful places of learning while others are the epitome of the worst stories you've heard.

[kseed03]

Good point, Chef Dave. I apologize for that. I guess what I'm trying to get from this post are some pros and cons for both levels. What do teachers love about teaching each level and some things that they wish they could change?

~Kerri

[MissTeach]

I have taught at both and enjoyed both. At the high school you get to teach a higher level of knowledge which is an advantage. You can have deeper discussions over more mature topics. At the junior high level the students may not have been exposed to a lot of activities and will be more eager to participate in those. Discipline is discipline at any level. You should not expect it to be easier at a lower level. You just use different methods; you have to be consistent at any level.

[Ms.Champion]

I teach 6th grade. First year teacher here! I was an elementary education major, but am licensed K-6. During my whole college years I always said I would NEVER teach 6th grade. The highest I was wanting to go was 3rd. haha There is the background, so I have never taught HS and don't plan on doing it. lol

Anyway, the pros I have seen from teaching middle school is: The students still will listen to you.
The students want to do good and make good grades.
I get a 90 minute planning period everyday.

The cons:
-The attitudes.
- Not wanting to stay on task.
- Being disrespectful at times.

Also, I don't know much about teaching HS, but I would think, MS would be a little more dependent on you, more than HSchoolers.
Hope that helps a bit! =D

[Miss T]

I teach at both levels right now. I was going to be certified for 7-12 but then my college told me that if I took one more course then I could get certified for 5-9 as well, so I did. It worked out for the best too. At my alternative school, I work with kids who are technically at levels 7-9, but range in age from 14-17. The more experience you can get the better, but I've personally found that my high schoolers are "better" than my middle schoolers. They are more cooperative and have less attitudes. But I also agree with Chef Dave-generalizing will get you into trouble and you'll go in with the wrong attitude. Good luck!

[El Maestro]

You might want to sub some more. If you sub at different schools, both hs and ms, you'll get to experience more of the factors that were pointed out in previous posts.

[smithmt]

I've taught both, I like both, but I say skip the subbing... El Maestro is right that you would see the the different factors, but when your a sub you abide by another teacher's classroom management plan, which may not work even with that teacher there. It certainly wont work when you're there. Which means you'll be creating your own plan, but each classroom you enter, unless you luck into a long-term position, is a new deal and MissTeach it right, you have to remain consistent, which subbing robs from you. I suggest you choose one and teach for at least three semesters if you are going to graduate in December, or two whole school years if you start in August. This will give you time to try you management strategies and decide if you like the level you are at. If not, a lot of districts will allow a transfer from one school to another in the district so you wont start over with benefits.
Good luck to you
-Matt

[Spectre]

It takes an unusual person (a special type) to be successful at the middle school level, but that is also true at the high school level, too, I am certain.

In high school, things are much more subject matter related. Teachers are part of departments and tend to, from what I can tell (never taught high school) exist in their own microcosm. That isn't evil, of course, but at the middle school level, students are taught as part of interdisciplinary teams. I like this approach and i like the student better than I do the high school students.

As someone suggested, try student teaching at a middle school. That will tell the story.

[MsCoffeeLover]

It takes an unusual person (a special type) to be successful at the middle school level, but that is also true at the high school level, too, I am certain.


My girlfriend and I were talking about this yesterday. Whenever you say you are a teacher, people already feel bad for you. However, the moment you say you are a middle school teacher, they really feel bad for you. Even the parents say they don't know how we deal with kids at the middle school age. Dag! Even the students don't know how we do it.

For the most part, it takes a special person to teach whatever grade you have decided to teach. Teachers need to find their niche as well, but it does seem to be an agreement that to teach middle school, you need a quirky kink in your bicycle chain.

I wouldn't trade 7th grade grade for anything!

[Chef Dave]

I've never taught middle school but while working as an elementary teacher for an inner-city school district, I earned supplemental pay while working as a bus driver.

Since I was a certified teacher, the transportation director assigned me to the toughest route. The toughest route involved the transportation of junior high kids.

The kids ate on the bus, threw leftover lunch items at passing cars on the interstate, and would not sit down while the bus was in motion. The final straw for me was when a student put his hands OVER MY EYES WHILE WE WERE ON THE INTERSTATE.

I shouted at the kid to get off and he just laughed and tightened his grip. I immediately began braking. I also rammed my right elbow into the kid's stomach. As soon as I could see, I put on my emergency blinkers and pulled the bus over onto the shoulder.

"CHILD ABUSE!" shouted the students. "DID YOU F**KING SEE THAT! THE DRIVER ASSAULTED ------!"

I got out of my seat and faced the students. I told them that they couldn't behave this way on the bus.

"SO F**KING WHAT? WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?" The shout was accompanied by a virtual blizzard of thrown soda cans, fruit, and wads of paper.

I shrugged, took the next exit, turned the bus around, and headed back to the transportation depot. By district policy, I was not required to take students home if they were not minding their driver. At the depot, all 64 of the kids were asked to get off the bus and to form a single line in front of the dispatchers desk so they could phone home and arrange for transportation.

"I ain't get'n off the bus. You HAVE to take us home. It's YOUR JOB!" grumbled a handful of kids.

I shrugged. "Suit yourself," I said. "It's been a long day and I'm going home. Have a nice evening on the bus. I'll see you tomorrow." I left the bus doors open and left knowing that the transportation director would eventually have these kids get off the bus and call home.

On the second day of my route, the kids continued their bad behavior. They ate on the bus. They threw things at other vehicles. They hung out the windows. They changed seats.

I parked the bus and issued a warning. "HEY F**K YOU!" shouted a student. "MY FATHER SAID THAT IF YOU EVER PULLED ANOTHER SH*TTY STUNT LIKE YESTERDAY, HE'D COME TO SCHOOL AND KICK YOUR BUTT!"

I returned the bus to the transportation depot. For a second day in a row, the students had to get off and call home.

On the third day the students stayed seated. They didn't throw anything. They didn't lean out the windows.

All of a sudden the entire bus began rapping an obscene and disgusting rap about me.

I didn't even bother with a warning. I just turned the bus around and took the kids back to the transportation depot. For a third day in a row, the kids had to call home.

The rest of the year went well. The kids got on the bus, sat down, kept their mouths shut, didn't eat on the bus, and didn't throw things. The one kid who tried to get out of his seat was grabbed by the person sitting next to him and forced to sit down. When the kid began to shout, a much larger student in the aisle across from him told him to shut the F**K up because he wanted to go home.

I cannot even imagine what it would have been like to teach these kids.

The kids had a vested interest in getting home and were probably nicer to me that they would have been to a classroom teacher.

[Spectre]

I remember your relating that incident to me, Chef Dave.:confused:

I cannot blame you for having the feelings you do towards teens.

LOL! I am sure you were glad your transportation department backed you up and made the kids call home. Had they forced you to drive the bus anyway, I cannot imagine that you would have survived the year - some of your students either. Driving on the interstate is hazardous as is without having to do it without your eyesight!

A lot of dealing with teens comes down to having some authority over them and also in having developed somewhat of a rapport with them.

I know that sounds like the very final thing you ever want to do, but hear me out...

You asserted your authority by driving them back to the garage. It took that to make them realize that you were in charge and that you could do something to them that would "hurt." With some teens, that is all you can do.:eek:

And yes, I am sure that if all of those students were in the same classes, those classes would have been he** to teach, but chances are decent that they were not and if you had the roughest route, then you had the toughest students in the school. Admin usually does not put them in the same classes together.

The key to teaching middle schoolers, aside from having firm, consistent support from the top (without that, you're sunk) is to establish some kind of rapport with them.

And it isn't an easy thing to do!:eek:

First, it takes a special (some might say peculiar) kind of person to want to spend all day long with these kinds of students. Granted. No doubt.

People like this often do, somehow, have a way of connecting with middle schoolers. Maybe it's personality or presence or they're just plain nuts (I've considered that one in my case this year) but middle school teachers, the ones who make it in middle school (not all do) just have a way of getting through to their hormonal minds.

I have been told by others at my school that nearly all of my students like me :eek:; it isn't me they are acting out against, they say. I could reply to that, but won't do it here.

I tried elementary school three times. You witnessed my final attempt, Chef Dave. I was just NOT suited for that level, particularly when the admin gave me the worst ones on that grade level (something they finally admitted to me AFTER my heart attack). It takes a special person to handle the little kid issues too. I'm just not one of them.....

[Chef Dave]

I tried elementary school three times. You witnessed my final attempt, Chef Dave.

With the exception of my last year (and that very brief stint in North Carolina), I liked being an elementary teacher. Sadly, NCLB turned creativity on its head. I didn't like feeling like an educational accountant and I most certainly didn't like the concept of standardized instruction i.e. all teachers plan lessons together and everyone teaches the same lesson, the same way.

The problem with writing lesson plans together as a grade level is that you invariably wind up teaching at the ability level of the weakest teacher. Instruction becomes an exercise in bland regularity ... teach and reinforce with worksheets. Have the kids read pages 245-250 and answer all of the section review questions on page 251. Boring!

When coupled with a total lack of administrative support, I quit and moved on with my life.

As a high school chef instructor, I find that for the most part, I enjoy working with students. Unlike core academic teachers, the students in my class are generally there because they want to be.

I'm blessed with excellent administrative support, a generous budget, and as the only instructor in the culinary arts department, I don't have to coordinate lesson plans with anyone. I have full instructional creativity over what I do provided I teach to the state standards.

As a former elementary teacher, I kept a six pack of sodas in the bottom of my desk drawer along with a couple of granola bars. As a chef instructor, I have beverage dispensers with six sodas, one energy drink, and four punches. I have an ice cream machine, and a walk in freezer and cooler filled with all sorts of food.

Life is pretty darn good from my perspective and given a choice between staying in the kitchen and going back to the elementary classroom, I'd rather stay in the kitchen.

There's far less administrative oversight - largely because the administrators don't understand restaurant operations. I don't have to team with anyone. I'm not responsible for state testing. My class size is ridiculously low with just 8 kids in my largest class.

At the high school level I don't have anywhere near the number of parent-teacher conferences that I had as an elementary teacher. My weekends are also largely my own as the advantage of teaching a hands-on class is that there isn't much to grade in terms of written assignments.

What's not to like? :)

[wig]

I love middle school. But I went from ELE to MS so I have no clue about HS.

[MissTeach]

I could NEVER teach elementary students! Middle school and high school are both okay. Sure, middle school students can be challenging, but when you are firm and consistent, like Chef Dave with the bus, they can become cooperative. Once you have their respect, the year usually goes without many problems.

[Spectre]

What's not to like? :)

Amen to that. As I have said, repeatedly...I think you have found your niche, Chef!!!!

[DarrenB]

I always thought I'd be a high school teacher, did my student teaching in high school, but was offered a job first in the middle schools. I've been there ever since... and I love it!

I taught 8 years in the 8th grade, thought the last place I'd want to be was in the 7th grade, transferred schools and was offered a job in the 7th grade, took it...and I love it!

It just goes to show that the reality of the situation can be very different from your expectations. Be open to the beauty of the unknown. I feel like I've grown because of my time spent in the middle schools.

Darren