0 on test for talking/ my daughter/ help

[Grace]

What would u do? My daughter 12yrs, 4.0 student, (first time in any trouble). She and another, 4.0 student finished their quiz. (This other girl hasn't been very nice to my daugher) She complimented her about her hair. Then my daughter replied "thanks alot". The teacher hear them talking and gave them both a zero on the test. (It was graded A,) but reduced to an zero for talking. She made them both cry by telling them she was going to call their parents but didn't afterall. I realized my daughter broke the rules by talking and should be penalized. I wish, she would have rec'd... a after school detention, a trip to the office or parent conferance. Due to this 0 her term grade went down to a 89-(B). (I did call the other student's mom and asked her if they were talking and she did confirm.) So, I called the the teacher and confirm the talking. Then, I called the principle about the situation and the teacher then told him, they were both cheating. (which she never mentioned to before me) she told him she heard them cheating...which is not true. Both Girls are the top student in the 7th grade. She is guilty of talking but not cheating. What would you do. My daughter feels it is unfair, she earned her grade and does want to be punished in that manner, because she has work so hard for her grades. please give me your honest advise what to do next. The principle said he has to believe the teacher and never even call in both girls to ask them what happened. The other girl's parent also stand behind their daughter that she is not guilty/ cheater. Do you think the puishment is appropiate to effect her mid term grade?

[wig]

Sometimes it is a tough call. If the teacher's policy is talking during a quiz is a zero, and the class was aware of the policy, then I think it is something your daughter has to live with. Whether or not it is a good policy is beside the point.

Fortunately, it is only a midterm grade. Your daughter will just have to work hard to pull up her grade. It is one of life's lessons.

[Bananas]

Schools, teams, and classrooms have their policies concerning many areas. The teachers often can hear the talking but are not always sure what is going on. It is fairly typical for there being a no talking rule while taking tests, quizzes, or some homework assignments. A lot of students will deny cheating even if they know they were.

Your daughter talked while others were taking a test, and that affects others' concentration and grades as well. This seems to be a situation of chalking it up to experience and learning from it. This hits where it hurts, the overall grade, so hopefully it will be a learning experience for her. Does she realize that an option would have been to say thanks in the hallway after class, or at lunch?

Sorry to hear about the GPA, but sometimes the real lesson comes from going through the life's lessons.

[MrHistory]

She is only twelve, its not as if she is not going to get a diploma or a degree because it happened in 6th-7th grade. There are no favorites in my class. No talking during quizzes or tests. Period. You talk= you fail everyone knows that.

Kids always say its not my fault she was talking to me, and i respond, you made a choice to talk back, you could have sat there silently.

Don't worry about it, its one test grade, she learned her lesson, and you shouldn't baby her, she broke the rules, regardless of circumstances, its an important one to learn. She will forget about it by tomorrow:)

[Chef Dave]

I agree with Mr. History. This is a tough lesson but it's a lesson she should learn now rather than in high school where her grades will be important for her college application.

No talking means no talking. There are no "ands," "ifs," or "buts" about this. The teacher had no way of knowing what the students were talking about. All she knew was that they were talking and they still had their tests on their desks. Assuming the students knew that talking would result in an automatic failing grade, the consequence seems reasonable.

The fact that your daughter had a 4.0 average was commendable but does not excuse the fact that she broke the rules. If the teacher were to make an exception because she was such a good student, this would undermine the concept of the entire policy. Other parents would say, "Why did you punish my child and not this other student?"

Rules are meant to be followed.

[Boxcar]

I agree with the other teachers.

Here is something I'd like to add. The teacher gave your daughter a logical consequence. The behavior was talking during a test. Therefore, the result of said behavior should be directly related to that test. Hence the awarding of the zero. An after-school detention or a phone call do not fit with the behavior. Do you get what i mean?

Your daughter learned a valuable lesson here. I'm glad it happened in middle school, because the upper grades and university often have ICBM, suspension or expulsion as a penelty.

I'm sure your daughter will be fine. You describe her as samrt girl. Use this incident as an oppertunity to discuss cheating, fairness, and the perscpecitves of others.

Pre-teens and teenagers tend to assume an egocentric viewpoint. This helps with the development of identity and is important to development. However, it can lead to issues. For example, your daughter probably didn't consider how her actions would appear to the teacher and to the other students. Even as adults, we otten struggle with this. Take for instance the cell-phone voice. Soemimes we get to talking and forget that everyone in that waiting room, store, or hallway can overhear.

I'd suggest that your daughter discuss the option of extra credit with her teacher. I would have given the zero. However, if the student came to me on her own and had a mature discussion, I would consider allowing her to make up the points. (I'd probably give the option to the whole class then.) The student wuold have to own up to talking on the test and communicate with me, but I would consider it. Perhaps this would help in your daughter's case?

[Grace]

Well, maybe I have taught my daugther, that teachers have a special "calling", and they are the "salt of the earth" because they have no money to show for their hard work, and usually rec'd no thanks for their contribution to society. That teacher who would have talked to them, like you were talking in the quiz and your will be penalized like... so I need to call or send a note to your parent or if she thought that indeed they were cheating. She would have said something like...cheating is really unfair to the other person, even if you thought you were helping. They other person isn't learning the material and also it put's that person in a compromising position and it's not trying to do a good deed. ( Guess what ... that is teaching something) At this point, the girls who have an opportunity to discuss, what really did happen. But, I guess the would be only a "dream world". A world where, it's not about grades or benchmarks, A's but about a successful student in the classroom and eventually in society with a positive learning experience.

[wtrafton]

Another way to look at it is that eventually your daughter will have a job in which she works for someone. If her boss says don't do this or you will be suspended or lose your job, if she does what she was told not to she will face the consequences. That is the life lesson I see here.

[Bananas]

That teacher who would have talked to them, like you were talking in the quiz and your will be penalized like... so I need to call or send a note to your parent or if she thought that indeed they were cheating. She would have said something like...cheating is really unfair to the other person, even if you thought you were helping. They other person isn't learning the material and also it puts that person in a compromising position and it's not trying to do a good deed. ( Guess what ... that is teaching something) At this point, the girls who have an opportunity to discuss, what really did happen. But, I guess the would be only a "dream world". A world where, it's not about grades or benchmarks, A's but about a successful student in the classroom and eventually in society with a positive learning experience.

It is not in a dream world. I know of many teachers, besides myself, who do teach about your above remarks, even before talking in a test takes place. This is discussed when going over rules and procedures so they understand why the rules are in place. Students also take the rules home and hopefully the parents go through them with their child. You say in this post that it's not about the grades, yet in your original post, you say that it will affect your daughter's GPA.

Holding the child accountable for the rule, along with all of the other students, really helps to make a successful student with a positive learning experience. It is only by going through some bad choices and the consequences which follow that we allow our children to learn and grow as a person. Hopefully the child learns from the mistake. Do not think that a teacher enjoys carrying out the consequences.

[wig]

Grace: That is not providing a learning experience - positive or otherwise. By her age, I am sure she is well aware that talking during a test is wrong and could be construed as cheating. By her age she is also well aware that giving someone answers is not helping. We are not talking about a second grader here.

As Bananas said. all of things you suggest would have been discussed at the beginning of the year. I can assure you that NO teacher enjoys giving a student a zero and it is doubly hard when it is a good student. I know you love your daughter and it is really hard to see her get the consequences of making a bad choice. However, I suspect that she will never make that choice again.

[MissTeach]

My daughter went through a similar incident when she was in seventh grade. During a test, her friend asked for a pencil. My daughter replied that she didn't have another one. The teacher had already handed out the tests and had said "There will be no more talking!" Consequently my daughter and her friend were both given zeros. My daugher, who was an 'A' student, was crushed. She came home complaining. I made an appointment with the teacher, and my daughter and I both went to meet with the teacher. The teacher explained everything that happened. I asked my daughter if the teacher had told everything correctly. My daughter said "yes." So I told my daughter I completely supported the teacher. Maybe I understand the teacher's side better since I am a teacher, but I believed my daughter needed to learn to pay attention to rules. She was old enough to know not to talk, so she paid the price for not doing what she knew she should have. She never made that mistake again.

[Aziz]

I agree with everyone else in that the rule applies to your daughter as much as it does to anyone else.

However, I think the rule itself is too severe. I would give a zero on a test for cheating, but not for talking during a test. Saying "Nice hair" and saying "The answer to number forty-two is the square root of six" are two very different things. Thanks to my unusually good hearing, I can easily hear what people are whispering about anywhere in the room (and even out in the hallway). I guess it would be harder to draw that line if you couldn't hear as well, but since I can, it's easy for me to make that distinction.

My students never talk about the test during a test. Whenever they're talking, it's "Do you have some lead?" I don't know how it is as your daughter's school, but the honor code is strong enough at my school that most teachers can even give take home tests without having an unusually high number of students getting A's. We don't need to have such a strict policy to keep students honest.

I have to admit that while I do admire your daughter's motivation and interest in school, she doesn't need to worry about keeping a 4.0 in 7th grade. It's great if she does pull it off, but she shouldn't be stressing over it. If I were you, I'll tell her only to worry about her GPA when she's trying to get into college, and to enjoy school while she can.

-Aziz

[Math101]

I disagree with most people that have posted replies so far. Behavior has absolutely nothing to do with the assessment of a student's abilities in a particular subject. The grade a student earned is based on ability, not behavior. If a student is talking during a quiz, I assume they are cheating and they need to take a different quiz at a different time (during their lunch or after school). I also contact their parents and recommend a consequence. Also, using or "wasting" a student's time, such as during lunch and after school, to reteach proper behavior is called for in this situation.
I understand that their behavior and performance are closely related, and it would be helpful to combine the two for classroom management reasons. It is also my duty as a teacher to teach appropriate behavior. But keeping the two completely separate ensures that their letter grade simply states their ability in that particular subject. I am obligated to assign a proper grade in a particular subject.
How many of you, that give a "0" for an assessment, would tear up the yearly state assessment if a student talked during it? If these are your rules, then you should do it, and send a note to the state explaining the student's behavior earned them a "0." Do you do that? Of course not, because official grades are based on ability in that subject.
Respect is another issue, and I am not talking about the type of respect that comes from fear. If I was any student in that class, my respect for that teacher would diminish considerably with a "grade adjustment consequence for misbehavior." This would affect my ability to learn from them. I am certainly not willing to risk losing my students' respect in my classes.
I have found teaching to be very challenging, but I will not do something that is clearly improper and inaccurate. I also will not teach others to do things improper and inaccurate. I do not believe it benefits anyone in the long run.

[Chef Dave]

If a student is talking during a quiz, I assume they are cheating and they need to take a different quiz at a different time (during their lunch or after school). I also contact their parents and recommend a consequence.

If you know that somebody was cheating, why would you allow that person to retest? A student who has cheated has violated the honor code by essentially trying to "steal" a grade.

In an analogous example, people who file false insurance claims don't think their behavior affects others ... but their behavior results in rate increases that cause the rest of us to suffer.

Although the student in this thread did not cheat, she knowingly violated a classroom rule by talking during a test. If the teacher were to disregard the consequence for talking, this would effectively undermine her classroom management.

What is the point of having a rule if a teacher is unwilling or unable to enforce it?

I disagree with the thought that a teacher's respect will be diminished by the enforcement of rules. It is my opinion that a teacher's respect will actually be diminished by FAILING to enforce the rules.

If teachers fail to enforce rules because they're concerned about the possibility of diminished respect, how will students who follow the rules come to view their teachers?

[Oak Tree]

As long as the rule was explained in advance I think the teacher did the right thing. I'm sure the student understands what 'no talking' means.

[Oak Tree]

How many of you, that give a "0" for an assessment, would tear up the yearly state assessment if a student talked during it? If these are your rules, then you should do it, and send a note to the state explaining the student's behavior earned them a "0." Do you do that? Of course not, because official grades are based on ability in that subject.

I would. That's actually the policy in my district. I mean, I wouldn't tear it up literally but I would declare it invalidated.

[Aziz]

Math101, I can understand your distinction between behavior and assessment. However, if someone were cheating, his/her behavior is directly affecting the assessment. If a student is talking or misbehaving in some other way, then I agree with you that a behavior-related consequence should be used, and not an assessment penalty.

I think just as much respect can be lost for a teacher who enforces too many rules as one who does not enforce enough rules. I think there is a balance and we as teachers do need to bend every now and then.

-Aziz

[Math101]

It is my duty, and I am employed to teach math and assess their math ability. Appropriate consequences for cheating and proper assessment is possible in this situation. Of course you can assess students using any combination of criteria that you want to (or have to). In my personal opinion, I just prefer to keep student achievement in a subject and their behavior separate. It just seems to be the right thing to do, and I have not heard a convincing point of view to the contrary. I suppose we all do what we believe is best for the students.

[muinteoir]

I would. That's actually the policy in my district. I mean, I wouldn't tear it up literally but I would declare it invalidated.

That's the policy in Texas too. Talking during the TAKS test would invalidate the test. If it's a test required for promotion or graduation, it would have to be re-taken during the next administration.

[Chef Dave]

It is my duty, and I am employed to teach math and assess their math ability. Appropriate consequences for cheating and proper assessment is possible in this situation.

Given your philosophy, this incident would most likely not have occurred in your classroom ... but please keep in mind that this discussion is about someone else's classroom.

The teacher in question told the students that any talking would result in a 0/F.

I don't think it really matters whether you support what this teacher said or not.

The point of the matter is that having said this, she was obligated to enforce her expectations. Failure to have done so would have undermined her classroom management.

I agree that teachers have a variety of educational philosphies that influence their teaching styles and classroom management policies. I also think that the range of rewards and consequences that teachers may use within their respective classrooms is necessarily limited by school and district policy.

Some schools have written policies regarding cheating (or the perception thereof) - so it is also possible that the teacher in question may not have had any choice regarding her consequences.

[Grace]

My daughter is heart broken because she is not a cheater. She doesn't care about her grades any more. She is sad and cries because she didn't cheat. That accusation is severe. How would you react, if you did sometime wrong but it was not cheating? CHEATER. Is talking and cheating the same? Would you defend your character? She wants to talk to the principal, to her admission of talking ( the two words which were "thank you") and accepting the zero and the B mid term grade. This teacher did make up a story ..like "I heard them say the answer" to justify her harsh penalty. (The principal had to follow the rule book on cheating) I told her, not to bother to see the principal anymore, because the "ultimate teacher" is watching and he knows the truth! I told her, we all make mistakes and the only real mistakes are when you don't admit to making any! Besides we don't want to hurt anyone!!!!!!!!!!

[wig]

If it will make her feel better to talk to the principal, I would allow her to do so understanding that nothing will change. I can appreciate that she would be upset at being called a cheater when the worst she did was talk when she should not have.

As far as not caring about her grades, hopefully she will get past that as she will only be hurting herself.

[Chef Dave]

This teacher did make up a story ..like "I heard them say the answer" to justify her harsh penalty. (The principal had to follow the rule book on cheating)

Are you sure this actually happened or is this wishful thinking? This information was not in your original post.

[Math101]

Chef Dave, I agree with you completely that the rules must be followed and accepted. It is simply disheartening to see another rule that further undermines the respect that parents and students have for their teachers. This rule was probably created from popular opinion to assist in classroom management , instead of doing the right thing. Politics in the school system usually has this effect. We should obviously take action towards earning more respect from parents and students instead.
As far as the invalidated tests go, the result would be a positive relationship. The more misbehaving students that get their test invalidated, the higher the overall scores will rise. We have to accurately test a high percentage of our students during test time, so that is not possible in my state. We just pull the students aside and test them.
It has to be accepted that no system is perfect and she needs to learn as much as possible during her time in school to do the best she can in life. The time for school will pass, new rules will come and go, and she will soon have to make decisions on her own about what is right and wrong. Hopefully she will consider this situation and realize that for what they do overall, teachers deserve the respect of the public. Then again, maybe she might conclude that the school system does not deserve high levels of respect because of this "rule." Whatever her final opinion is, she will pass her beliefs on to her children, and we can then try to teach them the difference between right and wrong.

[muinteoir]

r
As far as the invalidated tests go, the result would be a positive relationship. The more misbehaving students that get their test invalidated, the higher the overall scores will rise.

Unless it's a math or reading test in an AYP year. Then an invalidated test becomes a non-participation rating. Too many of those and you're in trouble with the feds....

[MsCoffeeLover]

Well, at the beginning of the school year, I have the same rules. There was one class that kept getting warnings, but I couldn't see who was doing the talking. They were told how they weren't going to believe it until they see it. Then the next student got busted. Sometimes you wish it had been any other student, but a teacher still has to follow through.

That student's parents contacted me, the AP, and then the principal. The dad and I handled it rationally, but he didn't quite agree with the outcome, and I personally gave him the number to the AP. The parent didn't like how the AP handled it, and next thing you know, we are all in the principals office.

We all discussed the issue, everyone was fair, and then the principal asked, "What was the quiz on?" I looked at the student and said, "Please tell them what the quiz was on." The student smiled and said, "It was on the rules and consequences." The first person to laugh was the principal, and said, "Isn't this ironic?" The dad had no idea it was on the rules and consequences, and wish he had known.

The principal was fair, and the student was able to retake the quiz, but he could get no higher than a 70. That was the same information I told the dad.

At our school, if a student talks during an assessment, they will automatically get a zero, but I will still grade it to show them what they would have made. However, they have the option to make it up IF they have a parent contact us, but they can get no higher than a 70.

As it turns out, that particular student and his dad just love me to death, his child loves science and is flourishing in my class. That had never happened to them before, and I just received a nice thank you from them.

Your child will be just fine, especially with the help of the folks around her.

[wtrafton]

Calm and rational conversations can usually cure a lot of issues. MissCoffee, that is a good reminder for us all that what looks like a bad situation can be handled with a positive outcome. I also like reading that there was consistency all the way up the chain. That can be rare and only serves to cloud the issues.

[Oak Tree]

Math101

That was a good post

[sgaestel]

[QUOTE=Math101;19514]. As far as the invalidated tests go, the result would be a positive relationship. The more misbehaving students that get their test invalidated, the higher the overall scores will rise. We have to accurately test a high percentage of our students during test time, so that is not possible in my state. QUOTE]

The more invalidated tests you have, the more likely you are not to meet the required number of students tested.
We also have a misadministration if there is talking during an EOC in our district. This is not a pleasant experience.
In my classes, especially my EOC classes, if students talk at all during a test or quiz, they receive a zero. They are told this before every test. That goes from the time I give out the first test to the time I take up the last one. If two students are talking and both of them are already finished, they still receive a zero. Their talking could be disturbing someone else who is still testing. This teacher absolutely did the right thing.

[ChocolateNewOrleans]

I actually just started doing this, this year....

I do multiple choice scan tron tests, if I catch students talking, they have to retake the SAME EXACT TEST the following day. However, the second test doesn't have multiple choice and they have write in the answers. Trust me, they ALWAYS do worse on the second test and it gets the point across. A side benifit is I never have to find myself sitting in the admin's office possibly being undercut by a principal who is trying to appease a whiny parent that their student got a 0 on the test for talking. My way, they still have a chance to test, and they still have consequences

[Boxcar]

I just want to point out something here, and it is going to sound jaded and cynical. Sorry about that in advace, but sometimes that is life.

A student who wanted to get out of cheating would say the same things the child in question did. Playing the "good-girl-who-made-a-bad-mistake" role is one way of getting out of trouble. It actually works really well. Adults and teachers have to be aware of this, or they will get played.

Now, I'm talking in general here. I'm definetly not saying that the girl this thread is about did that. I don't think that at all. I'm just thinking about why there would be hesitation to give the daughter a break.

I've seen the cards played. There are often several sets students exhibiting problem behaviors. Most teachers recognize the defient, "I don't give about what you do to me." Then, there are the MIA students. These are also easily recongizable. Finally, there are the "I didn't do nothing. I'm good." Oh, I can't forget the group that is learning and making mistakes. Those are in the majority, and they are not part of these categories.

So, whati is my point? That teachers can't be swayed by a teary face and a plaintive plea. It is hard to make these calls. A blanket rule with consequences makes it easier and more fair.

I agree that the young lady should be allowed to esplain that she isn't a cheater. If it will make her feel better, she should go ahead. However, she is not going to hear a vote of agreement and an apology. If she is searching for validation, she will not find it. The child is at the age where she needs to learn that not everyone is going to love her. The world is full of injustices. We can't define ourselves and expect everyone to give thier concensus. The daughter needs to learn to say "I know I didn't cheat. I know I am not a cheater. Those who know me know I wouldn't do that. I don't need everyone to see it that way to be okay inside." This is part of self-esteem and self-identity. A desire to please everyone and to convince all of one's own worth is going to leave depression, confusion, and anger when it fails.

[Chef Dave]

I will echo Boxcar's statement by also suggesting that parents do their children no service by trying to get them out of trouble. When parents talk to the teacher and then talk to the building administrator in an effort to reverse a teacher's disciplinary decision, they are inadvertently teaching their children that there are really no consequences to the poor choices they made in class.

Suggesting that the teacher "lied" to the building administrator further erodes that teacher's authority.

Students need to learn that there are consequences for the choices they make in life. If they don't learn these lessons now, what will happen when they become adults?

[Bananas]

Boxcar is spot on the money. Kids frequently give excuses to get out of trouble. Not all, of course. But many do. How many times have students told me I have lost their homework which they have turned in? The assignment is then found, incomplete, in the locker or the textbook.
How many time has a student sworn or called a name, only to tell the teacher something else was said when it is being addressed?

You better believe that the kids are paying attention to how the teacher responds and what the teacher does. Students will figure that some students are favorites and that others are picked on if a matter is not addressed fairly and consistently.