Magnet schools

[jsfowler]

What are your opinions on magnet schools? I teach in a public county school system. We have some highly gifted students who could be pushed much farther than what we do in the regular classroom. Yes, we give them modified assignments and extra projects here and there but imagine what they could do in a special classroom! In my middle school we have six teams - each team contains approximately 100 students and math, science, language arts, social studies, and special needs teachers. Some of us have brought up the idea of having a magnet team within our school. They would have to pass various tests/evaluations in order to participate. We have had a lot of negative feedback from fellow teachers - many think that they will not have higher level students left in their classrooms which is absolutly not true. Only the best of the best would be involved in this program. Some teachers also oppose this because they know they would not be asked to teach this team which is completly selfish. Obviously there would not be enough "magnet" students to fill an entire team (100) so probably only 2 of the homerooms in that team would be Magnet students. What do you think of this? Any advise for winning over the other teachers and my principal? He likes the idea but knows it would cause a major disruption.

[Boxcar]

This sounds like the Honors and AP programs in many high schools. Point this out to the principal and other teachers. High schools have these programs, but still have classes spilling over with "regular" students.

[Boxcar]

I forgot to add: I wouldn't have a different grading scale. These students do need a challenging enviroment, but they shouldn't be getting a GPA boost that is unearned. Yes, they will get this in high school. Nonetheless, I don't think you'd get anywhere if you made the magnet classes worth more. I know you don't mention this in your post, but I felt it worth bringing up.

Oh, and this: Be careful about how you plan to select students. Remember that not every bright student excels on tests. Have sort of a portfolio approach combinded with tests and interviews.

[Chef Dave]

If your school system is willing to segregate students on the basis of academic ability, does this mean that low achieving classes would also be formed? After all - if the best and brightest deserve to be challenged, don't students who are struggling deserve more support?

The problem is that the research doesn't bear this out. Segregated placement based upon academic performance i.e. "tracking," does not work.

A 1993 study conducted by R.M. Dixon and L. Gow found that:

"1. Academically gifted students will have lower self-concepts
when grouped with other gifted students compared to equally
gifted children in ungrouped settings.

2. Academic self-concepts of academically gifted students will
decline after they have been placed in segregated settings for
the gifted.

3. The greater the degree of segregation, the greater the decline in academic self-concept.

Relevant research evidence, particularly in the area of school-related affective variables, would indicate that this type of provision can have an unforseen negative impact that can depress rather than enhance academic achievement."

My personal feeling is that classes need to be heterogeneous. Segregating classes by ability removes peer role models from class.

Another problem is that low track classes tend to be composed of low-income minority students while upper track classes are dominated by students from socioeconomically privileged groups.

In addition to the unequal placement of students into tracks, the teacher appointments are disproportionate. The most experienced, teachers are often assigned to teach high track classes, whereas less experienced teachers are usually assigned to low track classes.

Does this make any sense at all? Don't students in lower performing classes deserve teachers who will help them learn and develop as students?

Lessons taught in low-track classes often lack the engagement and comprehensiveness of the high-track lessons. This puts low performing students at an additional academic disadvantage from decreased exposure to critical thinking skills.

Tracking can stigmatize students and lead to lower grades and poor attitudes.

[Chef Dave]

I should point out that your use of the term "magnet school" is erroneous.

A magnet school is a public school offering a specialized curriculum, often with high academic standards, to a student body representing a cross section of the community.

Magnet schools today have three distinguishing characteristics:

1. They provide a distinctive curriculum or instructional approach;
2. They attract students from outside an assigned neighborhood attendance zone;
3. They have diversity as an explicit purpose.

A segregated academic program within a school would either be an Honors program or an AP program. The school itself would not be a magnet school.

[jsfowler]

Thank you for your reply. I understand that we would not be a magnet school; I guess I used that term for a lack of a better one. It is not exactly honors and explaining that right now would take way too much time. I did want to point out the I also agree with heterogeneous classrooms. I DO NOT SUPPORT LOW-ACHIEVEMENT TRACKING. This program would still allow for heterogeneous classrooms. Only those students who are grade levels abouve their peers would attend specially-designed curriculum classes. I don't even know if I am 100% on board with this yet...just looking to see what others think. Thanks for all your replies, it has given me a lot to think about.

[muinteoir]

I love the magnet school concept.

However, I have to agree with Dave that you would not have a magnet team; you are proposing an ability based team.

I like this concept also. In my observations, most gifted children are not at all well served in todays educational climate. The push for scores outweighs the need for enrichment and acceleration.

I have some contradictory research to support ability grouping for gifted students.

1. Ability Grouping and Acceleration in Gifted Education. McClure, Carla Thomas. District Administration, Aug 2007, Vol. 43 Issue 8, p24-25, 2p;

Gifted students can gain academic benefits when placed in advanced and enriched classes and they performed better in it specially on subject matter tests. The positive effects of accelerated and enriched classes on student learning are due to curricular differentiation and enriched instruction can affect a student's achievement


2. Don't tell anyone I'm gifted. By: Bloom, Adi. Times Educational Supplement, 5/4/2007 Issue 4735, p30-30, 4/5p

The research indicates that gifted students in regular classrooms generally try to hide their academic abilities in order to fit in and are frustrated with classmates' level of understanding. Most gifted students prefer to attend classes designed for the gifted, in which they can discuss topics more interesting to them.


3. Gifted Students' Perceptions of the Academic and Social/Emotional Effects of Homogeneous and Heterogeneous Grouping. By: Adams-Byers, Jan; Whitseel, Sara Squiller; Moon, Sidney M.. Gifted Child Quarterly, Winter2004, Vol. 48 Issue 1, p7-20, 14p

the participants perceived homogeneous grouping more positively with respect to academic outcomes. They learned more in the more challenging environment provided by homogeneous classes.


4. Grouping the Gifted and Talented. By: Rogers, Karen B.. Roeper Review, Spring2002, Vol. 24 Issue 3, p103, 5p.

The conclusions drawn from 13 research syntheses on these practices, conducted in the past 9 years are described. In general, these conclusions support sustained periods of instruction in like-ability groups for students who are gifted and talented.


5. A Comparison Study of Student Attitudes and Perceptions in Homogeneous and Heterogeneous Classrooms. By: Shields, Carolyn M.. Roeper Review, Spring2002, Vol. 24 Issue 3, p115, 5p

Despite arguments advocating mainstreaming and heterogeneous grouping as the best option for most, if not all students, the findings of this study suggest that homogeneous classes may serve the needs of academically talented and gifted students without detrimental effects to other students served in heterogeneous classrooms.


6. Intellectual contributions and mutual support among developmentally advanced children in... By: Lando, Bella Z.; Schneider, Barry H.. Gifted Child Quarterly, Spring97, Vol. 41 Issue 2, p44, 14p

Discusses the findings of a study which contended that close interaction among gifted students affords them the intellectual stimulation and socioaffective support they require.


7. Ability Grouping and Student Achievement in Elementary Schools. By: Bracey, Gerald W.. Phi Delta Kappan, Sep86, Vol. 68 Issue 1, p76-77, 2p

This article deals with ability grouping and student achievement in elementary schools. In August of 1984, Chen-Lin Kulik and James Kulik of the University of Michigan presented a meta-analysis on this topic to the American Psychological Association. They excluded from their study inter-school grouping, selected subjects grouping, studies of rapid promotion, and studies of non-graded schools. The meta-analysis examined those studies that reported on the effects when students of the same grade are divided into classes that differ in level of average ability. Based on their findings, the Kuliks said that meta-analysis showed that students gained somewhat more from grouped glasses than they did from ungrouped ones. One subgroup of studies produced especially clear effects. In this type of study, students of high ability, or gifted students, were put into a special class in which they received enriched instruction.

[Boxcar]

I don't like the idea of tracking either. I think that Vygotsky and other social learning theorists got some important things right when they talked about peer learning, peer modeling, ect.

I responded as I did to simply address your question, not to state an opinion. So, I just wanted to throw my two-cents in now. (You'd think I'd be broke now - what with all those cents I give away...)

You do have a good concept, but it needs much work to be right. It is certainly a complex issue, and one that requires very careful structuring and review. I don't think I've ever seen it done right.

[jsfowler]

Here is one of the main reasons I support having some students be in a higher-level, fast-paced, special-curriculum class:

One of my classes this year is my dream class!! I have 25 students in this particular class - 9 are special needs ranging from OHI to MMD(a special needs teacher travels to all their classes with them so I have help when they are in my class); 7 are very-intelligent, well-rounded straight A students who work very hard; 6 are average students with hearts of gold; and, finally, 3 are extremely gifted and, if I were to guess, have IQs of 145+. I am a huge fan of peer tutoring...I usually pair my 7 lowest special needs with my 7 very intelligent students (two of my other scecial needs are usually the leaders in groups with an average child). I have to pair my 3 gifted children with either an average student (and even that is a struggle) or by themselves. They have neither the social skills nor the patience to deal with students who are not on their level. They cannot explain the topic in language others can understand and they cannot slow down their pace to wait on others. In my dream world, only these students would be taken out of the classroom, not the 7 well-rounded children who work so well with others. It is impossible for me to teach these 3 to their full potential in the regular classroom. I end up gathering more research about our topic 9usually from my old college books or the Internet) and letting them work on individual projects. They deserve more and quiet honestly so do my other students...these 3 have a tendency to put others down...especially my special needs and I cannot tolerate that kind of attitude. They are like this in all of their classes.

[Chef Dave]

I can certainly understand your position. I have taught accelerated classes as well. When I worked overseas, most of my kids were above grade level. The class itself wasn't an honors class ... it's simply the fact that I was working at a private school and the kids who enrolled in our school were all scoring in the top 1% stanine of the CAT.

It was glorious spending 7 years with accelerated students.

It was also a major disappointment to return to the U.S. and to find myself in an inner-city school with kids who were severely deficient.

I wound up opting out of education. I went to culinary school, worked in the food service industry for several years, and am now back in education as a high school chef instructor.

[jsfowler]

While I would consider teaching an advanced class, I think I would rather stick it out in the trenches...I feel I am making more of a difference. Yes, you get aggrivated at them but when something good does happen...the rewards are so much better.

[Spectre]

I presently teach on an 8th grade, interdisciplinary team, where I teach science. Our team has the "gifted" students, but also has students from across the academic spectrum from higher ability to self-contained special education (included solely for science and social studies).
While the gifted students are placed in "ability" leveled classes for reading and math, they are in heterogenous classes for science and social studies. :confused:

I used to be one of those who thought all classes should be heterogenous. I used to think the advanced students provided "role" models for those of lesser ability and could act as "peer tutors." I opposed ability grouping. After several years of dealing with students in situations like I am now in, I have come to change my perspective.

First, students are too young to be expected to be role models for anyone and as far as their acting as peer tutors, it is not their job to teach; that is my job. Students, all students, are in school to learn as much as they can; they should not have to shoulder the additional burden of addressing the needs of others.

Please don't take any of this to mean I am one of those elitists who cares little about any but the higher ability students. That just isn't true. I merely think that students need to be placed with those of similar ability so that their needs can be met in an appropriate setting.

Heterogenous placement night be suitable for the elementary years. There, many classes are self-contained and students are learning basic skills.

Beginning in middle school, things get increasingly more complex, the pace quickens and the demands are higher. We are preparing them for high school and, for some, beyond.:eek:

I look at my current situation (and some I have had in the past) and I can see how the more advanced students are held back by being placed in classes with lesser ability students. Likewise, the less able students feel frustrated and overshadowed.

Research can say a lot of things, depending, sometimes, on who funds it.

I see nothing evil or inappropriate about teaching a student with ability mates in classes designed to take them as far as you can take them.:D

Your "magnet" team idea is a good one, I think.

[Chef Dave]

I used to be one of those who thought all classes should be heterogenous. I used to think the advanced students provided "role" models for those of lesser ability and could act as "peer tutors."

I am less concerned with the concept of peer tutors and more concerned about overall student ability.

To me - a peer role model simply demonstrates ideal student capablility and potential. Yes students CAN figure out individual recipe portion costs and subtotal them to get recipe production costs. Brandi did a great job! The portion cost for an 8 oz. chicken fried steak with 2 ounces of country gravy, a cup of mashed potatoes, and a third of a cup of steamed vegetables is precisely $ _________ .

Yes, students CAN conduct food control inventories, rotate inventory, submit purchase orders, and receive, inspect, date, and store incoming food items using the FIFO system.

Yes - students CAN operate as shift managers, selecting recipes, portioning them, creating plating designs, and supervising student staff - guiding them through the production and plating of meals sold through our student restaurant.

I appreciate the few top caliber students I have who can be held up as role models to the class. These students demonstrate that success is possible. Mastery of these skills is achieveable. Their very success refutes the complaints of lower ability students who might say, "We can't do that! It's too hard!"

[Spectre]

I love the magnet school concept.

However, I have to agree with Dave that you would not have a magnet team; you are proposing an ability based team.

I like this concept also. In my observations, most gifted children are not at all well served in todays educational climate. The push for scores outweighs the need for enrichment and acceleration.

.

And this is what frustrates me. We are NOT serving our brightest students and are, instead, using them as proverbial cannon fodder in the battle for higher test scores. :(

These are the students who will develop the propulsion system to send us to the stars, who will cure AIDS, banish famine or find a way to make peace in the middle east. They are our future leaders, movers and shakers and we are not training them up as we should. All will suffer because of that.

[Spectre]

Thank you for your reply. I DO NOT SUPPORT LOW-ACHIEVEMENT TRACKING. This program would still allow for heterogeneous classrooms. Only those students who are grade levels abouve their peers would attend specially-designed curriculum classes.

This reflects my feelings, as well.

I am not looking to totally segregate students based solely on their academics. I merely believe that truly gifted students, the ones who are light years ahead of their age peers, should get special consideration in academics. We make "modifications" for special ed students, do we not? Why not for the gifted?:confused:

[muinteoir]

There is an abundance of research (see my earlier post) that grouping the gifted is indeed what is best for them.
The parents of the gifted need to organize and the courts behind them.

Although... I read in Education Week that the 7th Circuit (I think) court ruled that when NCLB and IDEA conflict, NCLB takes precedence because it is the newer statute.

Would this mean that new federal law protecting gifted students would take precedence over NCLB?

We can only dream.

[Bananas]

[QUOTE=jsfowler;15154]One of my classes this year is my dream class!! I have 25 students in this particular class - 9 are special needs ranging from OHI to MMD(a special needs teacher travels to all their classes with them so I have help when they are in my class); 7 are very-intelligent, well-rounded straight A students who work very hard; 6 are average students with hearts of gold; and, finally, 3 are extremely gifted and, if I were to guess, have IQs of 145+. I am a huge fan of peer tutoring...I usually pair my 7 lowest special needs with my 7 very intelligent students (two of my other scecial needs are usually the leaders in groups with an average child). I have to pair my 3 gifted children with either an average student (and even that is a struggle) or by themselves. They have neither the social skills nor the patience to deal with students who are not on their level. They cannot explain the topic in language others can understand and they cannot slow down their pace to wait on others. In my dream world, only these students would be taken out of the classroom, not the 7 well-rounded children who work so well with others. It is impossible for me to teach these 3 to their full potential in the regular classroom. QUOTE]

I might suggest that you watch how the students take being paired up with others, only through personal experience. I am by no means implying that what you are doing is wrong, only aware that balance is needed at times. My daughter is one who would have been one of your 3 gifted students with the high IQ. She really got burned out in fifth grade in having to be paired or put with three others of lower abilities. This was a huge class and the teacher tried many things to reduce her load and see to everyone's needs.

My daughter got pretty tired of holding others accountable for work and her learning being slowed down by her not going at her own speed. She spent the year pretty tense about what would happen to her grades. She did more than her share of the work while others did not pull their load. She didn't mind this here and there, but it got to be too much. She wanted to work with two girlfriends who were equally serious about their work and pretty intelligent.

Peer tutoring has its place. It allows students to work on their social skills and take turns. It allows students to cement in their minds what they have learned as they explain it to others. They gain confidence as they realize how well they do know the content. Students also may explain things in such a way that another student will understand. You just want to make sure that it continues to be a positive experience for all and not turn negative.

[Spectre]

Case in point, Bananas. It was not your daughter's responsibility to teach the others or act as a role model for them. Her education suffered because of it. Sadly, I have seen this same scenario played out in more than one school. Students are not in class to tutor others or be a role model; they are there to learn as much as they can.

As a science teacher, I use lab partners and do some cooperative learning, but try to limit it, particularly with the gifted students.

[Chef Dave]

There is an abundance of research (see my earlier post) that grouping the gifted is indeed what is best for them.

There is also research that says that grouping for the gifted is bad.

For example, consider: Dixon and Gow's research, "Selective Schools for Intellectually Gifted Students: Are They Justified?"

http://www.aare.edu.au/93pap/gowl93334.txt

[Bananas]

From personal experience, it would be putting it mildly to say our daughter was stifled as the years went on in her school system. Her class was known as mostly being below par by the standards, although there were five who were excellent students. By her freshman year in high school, she and her two girl friends were mostly teaching themselves in the back of the room in math while the teacher taught the rest. Occasionally, daughter would be bailing out the teacher by explaining how to solve the problem.

While I was sad to see her be accepted and move to the Math and Science Academy her sophomore through senior years, she thrived taking the level of curriculum they offered. The school serves the top 1 % of the nation in our state and the caliber of students really ups the ante in intellectual stimulation and discourse.

Whatever the research supports, and you can usually find research to support your stance, it was what she needed in her case. Our son chose not to go and to stay home and attend school. By that time, we moved to another call he was in another school system. He got a good education and attends the same school she does. They find their own success in the fields of mathematics.

[Spectre]

Your daughter was "lucky," Bananas. Sure, you were sad to see her go away. What parent would not be? But her academics were properly addressed and, most likely, her social ones too, from the looks of it.

Research can state whatever it wants to, but stories like yours tell the real story.