Student-teaching Dilemma...

[Chimerical]

Hello all. I am a student-teacher at a high school in Alabama. I teach 10th grade English. I'm going on my fifth week, and I'm gaining a reputation among the student body and faculty as someone who is too laid back with the students... Dare I say "too friendly" (But not filing a lawsuit type friendly) This is the way I see it... There is a line (despite what embittered, hateful, resentful veteran teachers say) between hard-ass disciplinarian and too soft and laid back guy who wants the kids to like him.. I strongly believe one can find a middle ground there. I don't want to be their friend though, I know better than that. I know THEY should know that I AM their teacher, a professional, and it's my job to teach them effectively. BUT I want them to know when we're not discussing a lesson, I can be fun and laid back, I have a sense of humor, I can talk to them like they are intelligent people, because so many of them ARE.

I've had almost enough of many veteran teachers' negative attitudes towards the students. They do not give students any credit whatsoever. They set their expectations low, apparently, and that's what they get. I was actually told I will have to be a dickhead drill sergeant until respect and everything is established in my classroom. I don't think that's necessary. First, my students aren't that bad anyways, they just love to talk. I don't have any BAD discipline problems: no fighters, no back-talkers, nothing really bad. Just talkers. And boy do they LOVE to ask me questions, either personal or otherwise, to get me off topic. I do not find ANYTHING wrong with making off comments here and there during a lesson, adding some humor to the classroom, as long as students can stay on task. And for the most part, they do. See, I have a tremendous sense of humor. I like laughter in my classroom as long as students know when to have fun and when to get to work (wish we could do both at the same time. Learning SHOULD be fun!)

I have this philosophy that students learn better in a relaxed, fun atmosphere. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it make sense that students will not learn as well if they are tense, nervous, and scared to death of the teacher? Sure, they'll mind because the teacher put the fear of God in them... But will they TRULY learn? Or just go through the motions to avoid discipline?

As it is right now... My students like me, and their behavior is improving. Should I stay on the same track I'm on and allow them to get used to my way of doing things, or go the traditional route and be so mean they'll be scared of misbehaving?

[MsCoffeeLover]

I think what some teachers may consider being really mean at the beginning of the year because it does set the foundation--not just being mean, but the students need to know you are serious. Starting off the school year as a "meanie" has its benefits because you can always lighten up as a teacher. If you have no classroom management in the beginning, you can't always toughen up. How you start the year really does affect you in so many ways.

This is your first year, and you are going to make sense of what you believe to be really important and what is actually out there that needs to be modified and adjusted.

What you are describing can be done, but it isn't always full proof, and there is a line that has to be drawn and many kids (even high school kids) can't really define. There is a balance that comes with time, and even then you will be tweaking a few things a long the way.

I don;t even knwo if that makes sense, but I just walked in the door from PTSA science n ight and am plumb tuckered out.

[Chef Dave]

Have you ever watched the Ron Clark Story? The movie is about a teacher who had an unusual passion for teaching. He used innovative teaching techniques and against all expectations, turned a class of "losers" in the New York City school district into the top performing class at his school. He has been called "America's Educator" and was named Disney's Teacher of the Year in 2000. He later went on to form the Ron Clark Academy in Atlanta, Georgia. The academy serves students from low income areas.

http://www.tnt.tv/title/?oid=633246

http://www.ronclarkacademy.com/ron_clark_academy/

[Oak Tree]

I'm going on my fifth week


they just love to talk

Fifth week is nothing. You need to watch and learn instead of forming opinions. They just love to talk, huh? No matter what you think, sooner or later it's going to reach a point where you can no longer get your instruction across because your students would rather talk... about other things. You'll have to crack down on them because their chatter won't allow you to provide instruction. They'll resent you even more because you weren't clear about it from the get-go. Several students will end up feeling entitled to the right to talk and constantly disrupt your lesson and will respond to your attempts to maintain order through discipline with attempts to ostracize you like an unpopular student. It's not about being mean but believe me you better nip that idle chatter and off-topic discussion stuff in the bud.



I want them to know when we're not discussing a lesson, I can be fun and laid back



I hope you mean before or after the bell rings because if you want to be a good teacher you better get used to your students being on-task for 100% of the class time.


do not find ANYTHING wrong with making off comments here and there during a lesson

Believe me, that's a bad habit.

[Aziz]

Chimerical,

You have voiced my opinion for me. I have had the same approach to my success. Students love when you treat them like full human beings with adults and feelings. My students have no problem understanding I'm their teacher. And they may test a few personal questions. They don't push it if I refuse to answer. I think it's cute they want to connect with me as a person and not just as someone giving them a grade. I like to connect with my students as people, too. If that's working for you, then ignore what other teachers tell you. Your teaching has to match your personality. While your colleagues may have found out how they can teach most effectively, they are different from you. Each teacher's class is going to feel different, and I think you should just go by what feels most natural to you.

-Aziz

[busbus]

... I'm gaining a reputation among the student body and faculty as someone who is too laid back with the students... There is a line (despite what embittered, hateful, resentful veteran teachers say) between hard-ass disciplinarian and too soft and laid back guy who wants the kids to like him..


I would take heed if the student body is giving you the reputation "as someone who is too laid back with the students." If the students are saying this, you are probably being too laid back. They probably see the handwriting on the wall that you will wind up having problems with students in the future.

Students don't want to be your buddy, they want a teacher who is fair and respectful, a teacher who considers their interest, learning style and readiness level, a teacher who makes learning exciting and interesting, and a teacher who is compassionate and understanding. Also, they want a teacher who sets a positive tone in the classroom, a teacher who is organized, and who sets limits, procedures and routines. Not only will students like the teacher, they will respect the teacher.

Those veteran teachers who you call embittered, hateful, and resentful have probably "been there and done that!" I don't know why you feel that they are embittered, hateful and resentful. Is it because they are trying to get you to understand the risk you are taking in being too laid back? I do hope that these unkind descriptors will not come back on you for the eating. Personally, I would listen to the words of experience. These veteran teachers are not out to hurt you. Whatever input that they offer, is only given to help you.

Veteran teachers do not have all of the answers and they do not have time to be petty!

[MsCoffeeLover]

Okay, I thought about this some more. I am in my fourth year as a teacher, and I will be the first to admit to having some similar ideas as a first year teacher. I used to think students were pretty reasonable, and most of them when you have them in a one on one situation, but after you get into the field a few years, you begin to see more than you ever thought possible. Education programs will always tell you to be tougher at the beginning of the year because you can always lighten up, but you can never go back toughen up. The beginning of the year sets the tone. You can set it up for them, or the kids will set it up for you.

Busbus is correct about having a reputation for being laid back among staff and students. If you are in your fifth week, and that is the reputation you have, you have pretty much lost a great deal of credibility already. I'm sorry to say that, but if you know of your reputation as a teacher that means students, parents, teachers, and administrators know of the reputation as well. You need more guidance than you are offering.

There probably are some bitter and unhappy teachers out there, but that isn't consistent across the board. After awhile, you filter out what is most important and "pick your battles." Folks can tell you all kinds of things and give you all kinds of advice, but it doesn't seem you are open to too much of it, and you are going to learn some valuable lessons through the school of hard knocks.

All it takes is one student to begin something. If nothing is done, other students pick up on that, and then more and they take things too far because nothing was established, and then you have chaos. "Without rules there will be chaos."

Kids don't have to live in fear, and I am sure you aren't giving some of these teachers enough credit, but they do need structure. The main priority of education is teaching and learning. Teachers have to establish that environment for that learning, but not all students have the same personality, background, values, manners, upbringing, etc. In a perfect classroom, you can have that, but perfect classrooms only exist in the land of make believe.

I don't agree with Aziz entirely, but I do agree with the fact that all classes are different. At the middle school level, we have multiple classes, but the rules and consequences are the same. Some classes have a different vibe than others. That is just the way it is. Some classes are a motley crew and some are just amazing. If you are going to stay in the field of teaching, you will need to modify and adjust in a great many ways, but you will still need a basic plan.

Things will surprise you. This is my most consistent and stern year yet--the year that has really and truly utilized all lessons learned in the previous years. I think I am mean, but the kids don't think so, yet I am having a really good year in terms of discipline. There are some students that should hate me, and I can't understand why they don't, but apparently there is that "special blend" of consistency, follow through, structure, and and sternness

Sometimes there is a time and a place for lots of things, but kids don't understand that. They only understand that one student got to make a comment and they didn't. One student got to say whatever and they didn't. Kids are very much in the selfish phase, and they need the help of adults. They have plenty of friends. They don't need anymore.

Veteran teachers are veterans for a reason. They aren't saying things just to say things. They are just sharing from a database of a lot of experience. You can do with that information what you will, you don't have to agree with it, you don't have to follow it all, but at least think about it.

You can keep your grandiose ideas, but try to observe and listen a little more.

[MsCoffeeLover]

We have a first year teacher on our 7th grade team. She has the same reputation you have. She is very nice and loves to plan curriculum, but she is one of the least respected people there. The kids talk about her, and the parents call to complain about her. Her laid back nature to a parent comes across as someone who can't manage her classroom. Try not to forget about the parents. If their children complain, then you can bet they are complaining to the administration. There are many kids that want to learn but can do so because of her laid back nature and tolerance of comments here or there or whatever behaviors you allow.

Her team members have to keep their doors open and manage her classroom at the same time. She has been offered suggestions, and she is not taking them from these veteran teachers. They have made her go to classroom management sessions. Still, she just can't recover what she didn't have in the beginning. The kids ignore her, and the teachers listen to what she has to say, but because she can't manage her classroom, they don't take her seriously.

The bottom line is that kids are going to do what you allow them to get away with. They are on their best behavior in the beginning and are just waiting for the right moment. You can't BAM! them because they are going to BAM! you.

Here me now and believe me later.

[Aziz]

I can see your point of view, MsCoffeeLover. However, I have a hard time with the "they will attack you if you let them" mentality.

I'm not advocating being completely lax all the time, but I do like that my students find me to be more approachable. This may be particular to my school, but more laid back teachers aren't any less respected than less laid back ones. Students recognize we have different teaching styles and go with the flow. They know which teachers allow them to eat in class and which don't. They know which teachers give late penalties and which don't. For instance, I don't grant extensions right off the bat, but if a student comes to me explaining that s/he can't realistically write an essay by Thursday, I have no problem letting him/her hand it in Friday. There is a mutual trust that is valued; my students want to keep the trust and they know that if they act up they'll lose that trust. They like being given that choice. They feel good when they are given two choices: a right one and a wrong one, and they choose the right one. It means a lot more than just being forced to do the right thing in the first place.

-Aziz

[MsCoffeeLover]

Aziz,

I also see your point of view, and I respect the relationship you have with your kids, but the relationship you have with your kids this year is never going to be the same for every group of kids. Plus, you have a different group of kids with very involved parents and raised with a certain ethic.

I admire your views, but having taught in rural, suburban, and inner city schools, you will see a difference. I am not saying students will "attack," but they will do what they can get away with, and that line becomes harder and harder to define to the point where you are just going to have to have it spelled out from the get go and stick with it. You can still have a policy in place as well as have a one on one relationships with the students. The kids still need to see consistency in that policy.

Your policies work at your school, and that is fantastic. We all wish we could have that, but your is not the reality schools across America.

There are kids that have seen more by the age of 12 than anyone could imagine. They need what you are offering, and every teacher wants to offer the same thing, but it can't be done for every child and every school. It just can't. Inner city kids will laugh at you and totally not take you seriously. You are too laid back and you are too nice.

However, as I taught in inner city schools, you will be surprised what you can do with the kids. I had boys the sized of college football players who would do anything for me. When administration didn't come to break up a fight, they did. I offered them something they didn't have at home. People made fun of me saying I should be teaching in elementary grades, but some of my kids had elementary feelings and emotions and attention. Some kids throw books across the room for whatever reason. They may not do that at your school, but it happens in public school, and I have seen it.

We all wish we could be at your school or have schools that work like yours, but if they could all work like that, they would all be like that, and the state of education would be in the middle of candy land, except some of the kids will steal your candy.

I am approachable as well. Like I said before, I think I am mean and there are kids who should hate me, but they don't. Kids can be reasonable, they will take ownership of their own behaviors, but they are still going to be kids and do what kids do.

I am disagreeing with you respectfully, so please don't mistake my tone at all. If it sounds harsh, it isn't meant to be.

[Spectre]

This is a complex topic and an increasingly volatile discussion, so I hope that what I say will not stoke the "fire," as that is not my intent.

I've been at this for 25 years, a quarter of a century. (ugh!) That does not make me some kind of guru or indicate that I have all the answers. I do not even know all of the questions yet. Never will.

Many years ago, I worked in a parochial (catholic) school. There were three home room teachers. One of them was a young Nun who was quite egotistical and very permissive with the students. She allowed them to chew gum in class, misbehave, hang all over her and call her pet names (like Nana); she plied them with food in all her classes, sometimes took them over to the convent (the nun's residence) for movies and parties. The kids, naturally, loved her.

They absolutely despised me and the other homeroom teacher :mad: because we insisted they work, behave decently and did not bribe them with candy and the like.

For us, life was a veritable hell on earth that year. The students would make up fantastic stories about us, tell their parents all kinds of tales and had the school principal (whose daughter was in our middle school and loved this nun to death) wrapped around their finger. Several of the parents of these students were the sick/twisted sort who liked to manipulate and control (the apple did not fall far from the ole tree, lemme tell you) and who were constantly complaining about myself and the other teacher. Believe this or not, there was an occasion where two of the students actually put cleaner into an apple I had sitting on my desk and when I bit into it...well, I right off knew something was wrong so I didn't eat the rest of it. Many of the kids thought it was funny. :confused:

In the end, the other teacher's contract was not renewed for the next school year, so many stories and tales had been spun by this group and so much controversy had been caused by this nun's behavior. I was offered a renewal, but bailed after that year. I wanted nothing to do with a school or with people who would do and say some of the things that were done that year.

My point is that reputation is everything and that, at times, if we are too informal or too "laid back" with the students, it not only affects us, it puts others in compromising positions. We have to be careful of that.

Children can be very sly and, yes, manipulative. That is sometimes the result of having parents who are too, but not always. Something I constantly needed to remind myself of in my early days is that students are not adults. They are still growing, still learning, still finding out how they fit in th world. They are not capable of making mature decisions and given the chance to take advantage or get away with something, they will jump at it, NOT necessarily because they are evil, but because they are learning. I was the same way. I dare say we all were.

So, Chimerical, what you may take for resentment or being embittered might just be a reaction to the position you are putting these teachers into. I cannot honestly say, as I do not know you or the situation you are in.

Every situation is different.

I have never been a "hard a**," stern disciplinarian and think I have always been very approachable and supportive of my students. Nor am I the kind who uses his laminated lesson plans from 1972 or insists that it was always done this way so.... I didn't deserve to get trapped in that situation in that parochial school.

A final word on this and I think it ironic, but there came a situation at the school, that year, where a new student came to us from one of the troubled, inner city schools. One day she brought a small vile of "crack cocaine" to school. It freaked the kids, of course. Who did they run to? Their "Nana?" The enabling school principal? No indeed! They came running to me and to this other teacher. Why? You can decide for yourself, but it was plain to me they knew who the real "adults" were in the school. They knew who to depend on. They knew who REALLY cared about their welfare. Kids are manipulative, but they aren't dumb.


Be a teacher, not a pal. They have friends their own age.:D

[Bananas]

Am I correct in thinking that Aziz is from another culture, and the atmospheres might be different in our schools as opposed to that of Aziz?

[Bananas]

Concerning the starting the year as being mean and not smiling, no all teachers do this approach. I am not the type who would not smile. Kids will see through at teacher trying to be something they are not. If it is truly not you, it won't fly. However, I am not talking about being laid back either. Fairness and consistency are huge points to a good teacher.

So many veterans are positive and supportive of new teachers on staff and learn from them. They also have a lot to offer newer teachers. It is not a matter of us vs. them in good buildings. To the OP, I am thinking that the veterans in your building are picking up on your attitude, and that will rub them the wrong way.

In any event, good luck!

[Aziz]

MsCoffeeLover,

I didn't mean to sound harsh at all and I didn't take your response as harsh either. I also realize my approach only works for my very specific situation. You made an excellent point.

-Aziz

[Aziz]

Bananas,

I live in the U.S. but my school is very unusual. That probably explains a lot. One of the reasons I love my school is that teachers don't have to be disciplinarians because the students don't put us in that position. Obviously, if "being a hard ass" is congruent with someone's teaching style, then so be it. Often times, though, teachers and students prefer the more relaxed atmosphere. The general understanding at my school is if you prefer a more disciplined atmosphere, then you can go to one of the several schools in the area. Teachers pick our school over others to strive in the more laid back and open-minded atmosphere.

-Aziz

[Chimerical]

I would take heed if the student body is giving you the reputation "as someone who is too laid back with the students." If the students are saying this, you are probably being too laid back. They probably see the handwriting on the wall that you will wind up having problems with students in the future.

Students don't want to be your buddy, they want a teacher who is fair and respectful, a teacher who considers their interest, learning style and readiness level, a teacher who makes learning exciting and interesting, and a teacher who is compassionate and understanding. Also, they want a teacher who sets a positive tone in the classroom, a teacher who is organized, and who sets limits, procedures and routines. Not only will students like the teacher, they will respect the teacher.

Those veteran teachers who you call embittered, hateful, and resentful have probably "been there and done that!" I don't know why you feel that they are embittered, hateful and resentful. Is it because they are trying to get you to understand the risk you are taking in being too laid back? I do hope that these unkind descriptors will not come back on you for the eating. Personally, I would listen to the words of experience. These veteran teachers are not out to hurt you. Whatever input that they offer, is only given to help you.

Veteran teachers do not have all of the answers and they do not have time to be petty!



What makes me say some of the teachers are that way is simply this. It might be because I know of teachers at this school, when referring to a certain student or group of students, to use the terms "idiots, skanks, morons, etc." I know of teachers who say "Oh, don't worry about paying any attention to her. There's nothing you can do with her." I've actually been told to IGNORE students. Been told that some are meant to fail. They'll never make it. "I can't STAND her. I hope she stays out. Maybe they won't let him or her back into the school. All he or she does if he or she is here will pull down those test scores."

Are all that way? No, probably the minority. Just speaking from my own personal experience. I still listen to and cherish their positive advice, though. I soak all advice and suggestions up like a sponge!

If you care to know more of my perspective and feelings on this situation to better understand it, feel free to visit here (http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=53134)

[Chef Dave]

At this point I think I will interject my own comments by suggesting the following to Chimerical:

1) You have only been a student teacher for a few weeks. You do not have the experience to make a broad generalization about the way teachers may or may not behave.

As with any job, there will always be people who are hardworking and dedicated to their jobs ... and there will also be people who simply go through the motions of doing their jobs.

2) Although I sympathize with your viewpoint, I also think that you lack the real world experience to back up and implement your philosophy on class management. I also think that it would be a mistake to discount everything you could learn from these teachers simply because you don't agree with them.

3) Have some of the teachers made what appear to be inappropriate comments? Possibly. The problem is that you're also paraphrasing them out of context.

I myself have a student whom I will refer to as "Jane" (not her real name, that I have spoken about with administration in an uncomplimentary manner.

During the 1st semester she missed 27 days of school. During the 2nd semester she has missed 9 days of school. Her attitude is horrible. She doesn't do makeup assignments and has a 35 GPA. Her absences have been so excessive that she is lacking in basic prerequisite culinary skills that other students have been developing since August.

Since our 2nd semester is much more academically challenging than 1st semester, I have told administration that I would be thrilled if she would transfer to an alternative school. (She keeps threatening to withdraw but never does).

Why would I make this comment?

I made this comment because I feel that this student is wasting my time as an instructor. Her poor attitude, excessive absences, and falling GPA are all strong indicators that she will fail this semester. I have already talked to her in private about her attitude, work performance, and makeup assignments. I have given her extensions on her overdue makeup. I have given her the opportunity to earn extra credit to compensate for not having turned in make up. There is a limit to what I can do and think that my time would be better served by working with other students who have an interest in actually passing my class.

Despite having made this comment, I will NOT give up on the student. I will continue teaching her and encouraging her to complete makeup or do extra credit ... but I cannot force her to learn. I cannot force her to do makeup. I cannot force her to do extra credit.

At some point, students need to take responsibility for their failure and lack of achievement. Students also need to understand that failing grades are a consequence for poor attitudes that include excessive absences, bad grades, and missing or incomplete assignments.

P.S. I don't know why you are referring us to another website where you have shared the exact same post.

[Aziz]

Chef Dave,

The replies to the original post are different.

[Chef Dave]

Chef Dave,

The replies to the original post are different.

Well of course they're different. :)

If I were to visit another forum and see the exact same posts, I would be a bit worried - particularly since this is the only teachers' forum that I visit.

I also have no interest in reading more about Chimerical's viewpoint. He made his pitch here. He got mixed responses.

He lost a lot of my sympathy when he began to openly criticize other teachers. I will again point out that he is a student teacher. He lacks the real world experience to know what is practical or impractical.

I also think it is a mistake to discount the lessons that could be learned from other teachers simply because he disagrees with their philosophical outlook on class management.

It is a fine thing to be a young idealist ... but idealism must be tempered with reality.

The reality is that he is a student teacher. If he expects to pass his student teaching practicum, he needs to buckle down and apply himself to working within the system. He will have plenty of opportunity to try out alternative approaches to classroom management when he's a certified teacher and has his own classroom.

[MsCoffeeLover]

If you care to know more of my perspective and feelings on this situation to better understand it, feel free to visit here (http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=53134)

If you care to have a serious discussion with a variety of opinions and experiences, feel free to stick around here instead of linking another forum. Understanding comes from being open to sharing and discussion. You want people to agree with your perspective entirely, and we just can't do that. We do understand the initial feelings as a student teacher and a first year, but we also understand that things just aren't that cut and dry.

If you were really that concerned about the situation, you would elaborate more here, investing a little bit more time and attention to something you hope to gain some insight instead of linking to another forum.

You want advice, but you want us to go to another forum to get more information? Dear sir, I don't think so.

[busbus]

If you care to know more of my perspective and feelings on this situation to better understand it, feel free to visit here (http://forums.atozteacherstuff.com/showthread.php?t=53134)

Chimerical,

I did visit this site and read many of your posts and the responses to them. I still stand by what I said in my initial post.

In my opinion, you are fixated on being who you are and doing things your way. Go for it. If it works for you, you can say, "See, I told you!" However, if you fail, then it's on you. You might even say, "I should have listened!"

You have gotten many excellent and thoughtful comments on this forum as well as the forum that you linked. Although I didn't read every post, I will venture to say that the majority of the posts stated that you were taking unnecessary risks.

I sincerely hope that you do well with your student teaching and that you have a successful teaching career. Best of luck to you.

[Spectre]

As some others have said, it seems you came here to get validation for yourself. Sorry, but I cannot in good conscience, accomodate you.:confused:

[MsCoffeeLover]

Concerning the starting the year as being mean and not smiling, no all teachers do this approach. I am not the type who would not smile.

People couldn't picture me without a smile, but you know what is ironic? Before I issue a warning, I smile at the kids. The smile is either a good one that encourages them to continue what they are doing or the smile is a not so good one as in the teacher caught you doing something you shouldn't be doing. Sometimes there is a third smile. That is the smile where I am listening to what the kids are doing and planning an as needed consequence. I actually review those smiles as a warning at the beginning of the year.

It is really kind of funny. If the kids are all of a sudden talking and instruction was not over or I am trying to capture their attention before the end of class, I don't yell. I could be organizing papers and smiling, getting agendas ready and smiling, but either way, it is the smile that tells kids that it is time to be quiet, and they get quiet.

Sometimes they help you by "shushing" other class members, and sometimes you hear them say, "Dude, she is smiling, you better sit down."

It really is amazing all the different forms of management that can be done.

[Boxcar]

It is awesome.

Another example of nonverbel cues is the touch of a hand. (Don't make that what it is not. You know what I mean.) If a student is wiggling, whispering, and poking his/her neighbor during CIrcle, a teacher can place a hand on the student's knee to help him/her refocus. In another instance, if that student is playing nicely with a friend and sharing, the teacher can pat him on the sholder to say a silent "good job".

[Bananas]

They say that our dogs can read our non-verbal cues very well. Tilting our head by 1/4 of an inch will tell them of a change in our mood. If dogs are this good, how well must our students read our body language?

[Oak Tree]

a teacher can place a hand on the student's knee :eek: My students don't play that game.

[Chimerical]

Just wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions and advice. Sorry if you didn't like my linking to another forum. I'm not very aware of forum etiquette, so I assume it was a faux pas on my part. Apologies. I fully plan on changing my way of doing things around based on all of your suggestions and advice. I know it all comes from experience and is in my best interest. Feel free to abandon this thread if you would like! Thanks!

[Bananas]

Some people like to explore other forums and read what other reactions are, so don't feel too bad. If you breached etiquette too badly, Addict or his wife would probably have commented to steer you in the wrong direction. Someone posted about this being the only forum he/she frequents, but I think that person was only speaking for him/herself. Many people go to several forums.

[MsCoffeeLover]

Just wanted to thank all of you for your suggestions and advice. Sorry if you didn't like my linking to another forum. I'm not very aware of forum etiquette, so I assume it was a faux pas on my part. Apologies. I fully plan on changing my way of doing things around based on all of your suggestions and advice. I know it all comes from experience and is in my best interest. Feel free to abandon this thread if you would like! Thanks!

Before you abandon the topic, I think it would just be helpful if you gave a few more details and really take advantage of the experiences here. You will be coming into your own as a teacher in the next few years. There is that transition, and it will make more sense with each passing year, but don't discard all of your notions. We all want to make a difference in every child's life, but once you are in the field, you will discover that you will make a difference for as many as you can. After awhile, you will discover that you are exhausted. Yes! I am in my 4th year, and my first year mentality has changed dramatically. It is just a matter of perspective, and you have to find yours.

Some students give some teachers a hard time while acting totally differently with another teacher. You don't have to believe what people say, but you can still offer that student that chance, and sometimes the lessons match up with the experiences the veteran teachers told you about. Sometimes they don't, and things work in odd ways, but the bottom line is just reflect about everything because the answers you think you have now will change in this first year alone.

Please discuss, but give the folks a little credit.

[Spectre]

No one is looking to run you off, Chimerical. Quite the contrary. There IS a lot of experience here. Take advantage. Ask Questions. Just be ready for answers that you might not expect.

Life is like that.

We're not a hostile bunch, but if we see someone going astray, we will give them a nudge to get them back on track.

[Spectre]

It is awesome.

Another example of nonverbel cues is the touch of a hand. (Don't make that what it is not. You know what I mean.) If a student is wiggling, whispering, and poking his/her neighbor during CIrcle, a teacher can place a hand on the student's knee to help him/her refocus. In another instance, if that student is playing nicely with a friend and sharing, the teacher can pat him on the sholder to say a silent "good job".

This might work where you are, Boxcar, but if I did something like this at my middle school, particularly if the student were female, I would likely lose my job.

All teachers, but particularly men, have to be very cautious. The world is full of wackos. Some of them resent the presence of men in the classroom and look for ways to trip us up.

Not fussing....just issuing a word of caution. :D

[Aziz]

Male teachers cannot get away with nearly as much physical contact (if any) as female teachers. It's a double standard that I have such a hard time with! When a student comes to me to confide in me, I want to be able to hug him or her without risking my career. I see my male colleagues being more formal (even if just slightly) than my female colleagues as an overcompensation. It is just too unlike me to be overly formal. Because the school I go to emphasizes gender equality and makes a point to have several male teachers, it's not as much of a problem, but I see the situation being a lot more pronounced in other schools. The other schools I visited had a lot more female teachers than female ones, making men the minority by far.

-Aziz

[Chef Dave]

I don't touch my female students AT ALL. High school is a lot different from the preschool where Boxcar works.

Our community has become particularly sensitive about the way male teachers interact with their female students.

Our art teacher was arrested a few months ago for voyeurism and surreptitious photography. He hid a video camera in a girls' changing room and was caught when the camera began beeping.

A coach at our local college was also fired and has charges pending for statutory rape. He allegedly had inappropriate relations with a student when she was only 16 years old.

[Spectre]

You're right, Aziz....it is a double standard, but one we have to live with for now.

I'm not terribly formal, either, but I keep my hands to myself and am even quite careful about what I say and to whom.

It's a sad state of affairs, but an allegation, even an unfounded one, can ruin you. We've had two male teachers accused in my school district alone, this year. Both were found innocent after a lengthy and painful investigation. They're still teaching but you can bet they are doing so under a cloud of suspicion. Our society is paranoid about this kind of thing. The news is full of it. Come to think on it, the news media is FULL of it too :( and tends to blow things out of proportion. It sells newspapers and raises media ratings. Who cares what it does to someone's life and reputation.

This from someone who is a former journalist. :confused:

So, again, I am not fussing or condemning, just urging caution.

[Aziz]

I teach at the high school level, too. I don't touch my students either. I don't use endearing terms ("honey," "sweetie.") I am more intimate in other ways when the situation calls for it. I let students confide in me with a promise of confidentiality. I will tell a personal story about myself if it is highly relevant. (E.g. "When I was in the same situation, I did this, and this resulted from it.")

I am the first one to err on the side of caution. Having been on the student side of teachers that crossed lines, I am very aware of those few individuals. What is so devastating is that both of you, Chef Dave and Spectre, mentioned innocent teachers whose careers were put in jeopardy because of a false accusation. And yet two teachers I had got away with years and years of crossing that line with students. One male and one female. It is the very occasional male teacher that reinforces the stereotype of the pedophile. And yet the very occasional female teacher is rarely (if ever) suspected. It seems to me the double standard is fabricated based on the assumption that men are more sexual than women. In reality, I think the percentages of male and of female teachers that are inappropriate are much closer.

-Aziz

[Chef Dave]

Chef Dave and Spectre, mentioned innocent teachers whose careers were put in jeopardy because of a false accusation.

I think you misunderstood my post. The art teacher I mentioned was quite guilty. He has already made an out of court settlement and has accepted probation with no jail time, registration as a sex offender, and loss of his teaching certificate as a consequence of his behavior. His wife has sued for divorce. The teacher in question has also signed over all assets to his wife.

As for the coach ... he has lost his job and charges may be pending.

http://www.eacourier.com/articles/2008/01/23/update/tuesday/doc47965fb24043d026630339.txt

[Aziz]

Oh, I'm sorry, Chef Dave! I understood the art teacher was guilty but I misunderstood the implications in the statement "allegedly had inappropriate relations" about the coach as meaning he didn't actually have inappropriate relations.

It is so relieving to me to know that teachers that are guilty are being caught. It is such a sensitive topic which makes it so hard to determine who is a real offender and who is not.

-Aziz

[Boxcar]

Let me jump in here.

I work with preschoolers! It is not an issue at most centers. I can hold a hand, have a child on my lap, ect. This is on a rare basis anyways. Preschoolers need to be working on autonomy and self-regulatory skills. I'm definetly not touching inappropriately!!! Please don't get the wrong idea about me. I respect that even small children need thier personal space. If I see a child is crying, for example, I ask "Would you like a hug?" before I hug the child. Stranger Danger is something we work on at this level, and I know it is important to teach the respect of personal space.

Oh, this is the problem with forums sometimes. It can be hard to be clear about what you want to say. *blushing*

[Ima Teacher]

It's always important to remember that when you are going into a school, you should do lots more observing than you think is necessary. Some things just aren't appropriate in some schools that would work fine in other places.

Don't dismiss those who have been there a long time as being jealous, out-of-touch, too strict, etc. After all, they have been there longer than you have. Now, that doesn't mean that they can't be wrong, but experience should count for something.

[Spectre]

Let me jump in here.

I work with preschoolers! It is not an issue at most centers. I can hold a hand, have a child on my lap, ect. This is on a rare basis anyways. Preschoolers need to be working on autonomy and self-regulatory skills. I'm definetly not touching inappropriately!!! Please don't get the wrong idea about me. I respect that even small children need thier personal space. If I see a child is crying, for example, I ask "Would you like a hug?" before I hug the child. Stranger Danger is something we work on at this level, and I know it is important to teach the respect of personal space.

Oh, this is the problem with forums sometimes. It can be hard to be clear about what you want to say. *blushing*

No one is jumping to any conclusions, Boxcar. Sorry if you got that idea. The world of preschool is much different from the world I work in. I was relating my comments to my own situation. Little ones need, even want that personal touch. I am told that newborn babies would die without it.

So be at ease. No one here is alleging anything about you, just the way of the world in general. :)

[Aziz]

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression I was attacking you, Boxcar. I didn't mean to accuse you of anything.

-Aziz