Do our schools need to change? How?

[Spectre]

I've heard much discussion that our schools aren't getting the job done, that education in general and schools in particular need to change.

In what ways?

[javamomma]

I think schools are doing a great job but parents have totally dropped the ball. I have had parents tell me that it is my job to read and work with their child, they don't have time at home. A Kindergarten teacher in our building was told the same thing about sight words that needed to be studied at home.
Parents do not want to take any responsibilty for their children's education. Schools plan parent nights, workshops, etc. but it is not the parents that you want to see that come to these events. IT is the parents of students that are perforoming well already.

I think that the new standard of rewarding teachers for top test scores should be reversed, and reward parents for students test scores. I can guarantee that if a parent was offered $50 for a profiecient test score, they would be all about helping their student and if were $100 for advanced who knows what might happen.

I also think the powers that be need to come and spend some time in a elementary class room. Look at my 3rd graders trying to write a multi paragraph story with few errors in a 45 minute cold write prompt. See if they could do it at a proficient rate.

[Chef Dave]

Schools need to change in a variety of ways.

1) Funding: The way schools are funded is antiquated. Basic funding comes from a portion of property taxes supplemented by Federal and state funding. The problem is that not all properties are created equal. Schools located in affluent upper middle class suburbs reap the benefit of higher property values while inner city schools derive little benefit from abandoned warehouses or tenement slums.

Various states have tried "band-aid" approaches to fix this problem. Texas enacted the "Robin Hood" bill in 1993. The law took property tax revenue from wealthy school districts and (in theory) distributed the money among poor districts in an effort to equalize the financing of all districts throughout the state of Texas.

The law was overturned in 2004 when state district Judge John Dietz found in West Orange-Cove CISD v. Neeley that the state’s funding system was inadequate, inefficient, and unconstitutional.

2) The entire concept of a school board is a holdover from our rural agrarian past.

During the 19th century when school boards oversaw small rural schools and everyone knew each other in the community, the concept of a school board made perfect sense. The school board oversaw curriculum and instructional policies. They also monitored the school to make sure that everything being taught was in line with community values. State oversight was nominal.

The nature of education has drastically changed. During the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the focus of education shifted from private schools and independent schools to a statewide public education system. The state and later the Federal government, began taking more and more control over what was taught in our schools.

Our population has also grown. Some districts are huge and have grown far beyond what anyone could have anticipated when they were first organized.

For example, in 1859, Houston opened it's first public school house, the Houston Academy. The school was considered quite liberal for its time as it was a non-denominational, CO-EDUCATIONAL establishment.

In 1876, the Houston Public Schools were formed under the initial control of the mayor and city council. Schools were only open to children between the ages of 8 and 14.

In 1881, the Houston Public Schools opened their first secondary school - serving children through the age of 18. A board of governors replaced the Mayor and the city council.

By 1900, the HPS had grown and had an enrollment of 6,000 students and a teaching staff of 134.

From its humble origins in the 19th century, the Houston Independent School District has continued to grow and now serves 205,000 students in nearly 300 schools and programs. The district has 19,241 employees of whom over 10,000 are teachers. It is the largest school system in Texas and the seventh-largest in the nation.

Not only have many school districts gotten larger - but as I said earlier, the very nature of education has changed. Today's schools must now follow state and national curriculum and student performance standards instead of locally set objectives.

All too many school board members are hopelessly unqualified to supervise a large school district. Although teachers must meet stringent requirements to become classroom instructors, anyone with enough votes - regardless of actual qualifications, may be elected to sit on a school board.

According to Stephen Macedo, a political theorist,"Local control when combined with local funding and district based assignments of students to schools has created a geography marked by stark inequalities centered on class and race: a new form of separate and unequal." In other words - the rich districts stay rich. The poor districts stay poor.

When combined with inadequate leadership that results from little or no qualifications for school supervision, political infighting, and peer group pressure from within the school board to maintain the status quo, the average board is woefully unprepared for the administrative challenges of the 21st century.

3) Do all students really need to go to college?

James E. Rosenbaum has suggested that "Encouraging students to attend college despite their poor academic preparation is a practice based in part on the (false) premise that all decent jobs require a college education."

For example, union electricians, machinists, tool and die makers, and sheet-metal workers, have high-demand skills, excellent benefits, good working conditions, and annual salaries that often exceed $45,000 by age 28.

Statistically speaking, based on figures from the AFL-CIO, only 14% of students with C averages or lower in high school will actually go on to earn a B.A. or even an A.A. in college. These particular students will average 4.3% more than students who did not earn a college degree ... but these students will also earn 33% less than the earnings made by the average college graduate.

This begs the question ... why encourage marginal students to go to college? Why not encourage them to pursue vocational education training? Isn't having a good job that pays well more important than simply having a degree?

4) We need to enforce basic standards

If our high school students developed good work habits and solid high school level skills, many of them could get decent jobs after graduating from high school. The problem is that rampant grade inflation, social promotions, and/or the graduation of students who don't deserve to have graduated; has effectively undermined the value of a high school diploma in the eyes of private sector employers.

For the past two decades, more and more employers have been turning to colleges to recruit employees on the surprising premise that college graduates will at least have what used to be considered a basic high school education.

We could turn this trend around by simply increasing our rigor rate and imposing standards that actually mean something ... so that our high school diplomas are actually worth more than the paper they're written on.

To be quite blunt, ill conceived programs like "character education" have done us more harm than good.

When we "value everyone" by giving all participants at a science fair a ribbon, all we are really doing is celebrating mediocrity.

When we give students passing grades just for coming to school, we are encouraging sloth and poor work ethics.

When there are no consequences for tardiness, we are inadvertently teaching students that punctuality doesn't matter.

Is it any wonder that today's employers often disdain the employment of a mere high school graduate? Who in their right mind would want to hire a mediocre employee with a poor work ethic and no sense of the importance of actually getting to work on time?

[Spectre]

I
I think that the new standard of rewarding teachers for top test scores should be reversed, and reward parents for students test scores. I can guarantee that if a parent was offered $50 for a profiecient test score, they would be all about helping their student and if were $100 for advanced who knows what might happen.

.

I have heard something like proposed elsewhere and think there is merit to it. I just wonder if the politicians, business interests and educrats who now control education can wrap their cluttered minds around this idea. Right now, politicians garner votes from heaping blame on the schools, business interests are licking their lips in anticipation of seizing full control of the schools (for profit) when NCLB causes them to "fail" and educrats would never give up that much control. I like the idea, personally.:)

[Spectre]

[QUOTE=Chef Dave;12945]Schools need to change in a variety of ways.

1) Funding: The way schools are funded is antiquated. Basic funding comes from a portion of property taxes supplemented by Federal and state funding.

Agreed. We have problems with this here in North Carolina. I am sure it is true elsewhere too. So, how do do we fund public schools?


2) The entire concept of a school board is a holdover from our rural agrarian past.

B][/B] I believe you hit upon a major flaw in the system here, Chef Dave. Local control and neighborhood schools are what I believe we should return to. The objection that will be raised is that this will, in effect, resegregate the schools. Perhaps, at first, but neighborhoods here in North Carolina are becoming increasingly diverse. Some of this has come from a desire by minorities to seek better living conditions and more opportunities for themselves and their children. More power to them. A school should be the focus of a neighborhood, not something that children are bused and hour or two to reach. In my school, we have a great deal of diversity, but most of the minority families don't feel connected with the school because they live some distance away. Local control, local say-so, less interference from the outside - Yes!


3) Do all students really need to go to college?

That would get an emphatic NO, from me.

Our one size fits all approach has done away with too much of our vocational education programs. I taught vocational technical ed for three years. There were students who excelled in my program when they were failing everything else. It was NOT because I was a miracle worker. It had little to do with me. This occured because these students were able to address their relative strengths and experience success with things they both knew about and enjoyed doing.
Not everyone is born a Rhodes Scholar. Not everyone needs to learn analytical geometry. I am most grateful for auto mechanics, carpenters, elecricians....where would we be without them?

4) We need to enforce basic standards

LOL! What you refer to as "character education" is not really that at all. You are referring, I think, to the self-esteem "training" that was so popular some years back. All that did was give children a sense of being the very center of the universe and therefore entitled to do anything they desired. Oh yes, some of the effects still linger. Social promotion is a glaring example. How are we to "raise the bar" when students are just pushed on to the next grade level without having earned the right to do that? They want "accountability" from teachers, but don't seem to insist on it from anyone else.

[Chef Dave]

So, how do do we fund public schools?

I don't think there was anything fundamentally wrong with the basic premise of the Robin Hood bill in Texas. It was struck down because redistribution of local property tax money was seen as amounting to a state property tax which is illegal according to the Texas state constitution.

Instead of having local property taxes paid to county municipal governments, I think we should actually have a state property tax. Distribution would be based upon student enrollment i.e. X dollars per student.

Revenue from property tax money would continue to be augmented by Federal and state funding.

[Chef Dave]

How are we to "raise the bar" when students are just pushed on to the next grade level without having earned the right to do that? They want "accountability" from teachers, but don't seem to insist on it from anyone else.

We are now paying the price for social promotions. All too many schools that have failed AYP have had prior problems with this issue. Years of turning a blind eye to student performance has resulted in consequences that are being paid now.

Unfortunately, I believe these consequences are also paying dividends for the conservative Republican agenda that favors school vouchers and/or the privatization of schools via for profit educational institutions.

Unable to make much headway in past years and having found that only a nominal fraction of families eligible to use school vouchers will actually do so, NCLB affords the perfect opportunity to close schools.

[Spectre]

Unable to make much headway in past years and having found that only a nominal fraction of families eligible to use school vouchers will actually do so, NCLB affords the perfect opportunity to close schools.

I have been saying this for years, but some see me as just another nutcase "conspiracy theorist."

Conspiracy does not say it. By setting next to impossible goals for NCLB, this plan (yes, I think it is deliberate) will effectively torpedo public education, causes its eventual dismantling or collapse, and make education another milking cow for corporate interests. It will also help to make education the province of the few and the privledged, as it was back in the middle ages. That was the way that the powerful ruling class kept the unwashed masses under control. Knowledge IS power.

Consider this: an uneducated, relatively ignorant populace does not tend to ask questions. They just do what they are told to do. The people who have run this country for the last seven years would like nothing better.:mad:

[Chef Dave]

There is no doubt in my mind that we already have a skewed education system. In general, public schools in middle class suburbs are better supplied and have more experienced teachers than public schools located in low income inner-city areas.

The truly well to do, for the most part, do not enroll their children in public schools. Their affluence allows them to place their children in elite private schools. Many of these private schools, particularly those on the east coast, are geared towards prepping their graduates for post secondary studies at an Ivy League school i.e. Brown, Dartmouth, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc.

As someone who attended private schools throughout most of his childhood, I must admit that there is part of me that has always sneered at the academic standards of public education.

While all too many schools struggle to meet AYP, most private schools continue to challenge students to excel far beyond the minimum expectations set by NCLB.

To be fair, private schools - specifically those which are proprietary and not religious, do not have the same problems that public schools have. In general, most private schools have excellent parental support and reasonably motivated students who are for the most part on or above grade level. In contrast, public schools have to educate everyone - regardless of whether or not the children come to school with a willingness to learn. Public schools are also required to deal with the inclusion of special education students in mainstream core academic classes. Private schools have no such requirement and most of them don't have special education programs due to strict admission requirements.

Private schools are not bound by NCLB testing requirements but most give some sort of test anyway if for no other reason than to use testing as a performance measure against how students at other private schools are doing.

When I was an elementary teacher, I spent half of my career teaching at international private schools in Saudi Arabia and Beirut, Lebanon.

In Saudi Arabia, most of our student body consistently tested in the top 1% of the CAT, California Achievement Test. The 1% sounds impressive but the CAT was only a standardized norm referenced test that measured basic skills.

Our students were far beyond "basic."

[javamomma]

Regardless of the NCLB Law there are children that are going to be left behind due to circustances beyond their control. Some of those issues are enviormental, others are emotional, and still others are simply intellectual. Not all children are the same and cannot be made to perform to the same standards.

Our district is considered a bedroom community to Little Rock. There is no bussiness base to support our schools. The support comes from property taxes. I wish there was a way to fund our schools (that people keep moving to our community to take advantage of ) that would pass the share around. Maybe we should just have a school tax and you pay a certain amount per child you have in public schools :) That would get the families that have tons of kids in our system! LOL

[javamomma]

You also have to be careful judging America's test scores against other nations. DO the other places test their entire student body? Or only the top achieving students? I know that I spoke with a teacher in Japan that could not believe we actually test our special education students. Not only do we test them, but teachers/districts are held accountable for their test scores. THey too must be proficient.

[Spectre]

You also have to be careful judging America's test scores against other nations. DO the other places test their entire student body? Or only the top achieving students? I know that I spoke with a teacher in Japan that could not believe we actually test our special education students. Not only do we test them, but teachers/districts are held accountable for their test scores. THey too must be proficient.

You bring up a valid point, one that is sometimes ignored or unknown to the public in general.

America is more egalitarian than either Europe or Asia although "democracy" exists in both those places as well as here.

:confused:

Hence, we could/should have "high expectations" for all, since this is the land of "opportunity." In that sense, NCLB is a noble thing. Sadly, it is also an unrealistic expectation. :(

Special education students are identified as "special" because they have special needs, learning differences, and, yes, limitations. That is why we modify their assignments and their assessments during the regular school year. Then along comes testing day and, magically, these students are expected to test on grade level and be "proficient;" that is, they are expected to score as well as their non special education agemates. Folly and madness.....:mad:

[javamomma]

Then along comes testing day and, magically, these students are expected to test on grade level and be "proficient;" that is, they are expected to score as well as their non special education agemates. Folly and madness.....

I teach 3rd grade and have a sweet little girl that reads on a 1st grade level. NO fault of her own, just how she is wired. She has made great progress this year. However, come spring, she will take the 3rd grade bench mark along with everyone else. :confused:

[Spectre]

Some years ago, I did grade 3, and was witness to their first attempts at the end of grade test. 90 minutes for a reading test. Imagine an 8 year old doing anything like that for 90 minutes. Many of them were in tears. It amounted to child abuse.

[muinteoir]

Several comments on this subject:

1, Funding in Texas is a nightmare. Chapter 41 (Robin Hood) does not work. It does not provide enough funding for some schools. Some schools who receive Ch. 41 funds have far more funding overall than others (Title, etc). Some of the Ch. 41 ("rich", those that have their taxes redistributed) schools are suffering greatly because there is no way to make up the lost funding, some have had no noticeable change because parents in the community can contribute $$$$$$$$$$$$ to the schools.

There needs to be a equitable system for providing funding to schools. I agree with Dave that a state income tax - dedicated only to education - is probably the best way to go.

I'm speaking only for TX of course. I don't really know how other states fund schools. It would be interesting to find out.

2. The over reliance on testing has got to end. It has sucked the joy out of learning and teaching. Some measure of learning and achievement is needed, but the system we have now is hurting more than helping at this point.

3. I have no idea how to change this one: the need for superintendents to be in the Texas Monthly list of top schools, or on some list put out by some organization that rates schools in various ways. Many of those ratings are just ridiculous.

4. Scripted and rigidly paced curricula needs to go. Give quality teachers the standards they need to meet by the end of the school year and let them teach.

5. Speaking of standards - they need to be revised so that they are truly appropriate for the grade level and actually doable in a years time. (This may be a TX issue).

6. Speaking of quality teachers - salary and benefits need to be commiserate with skill and experience. Ineffective teachers should be dismissed.

7. Quality administration - administrators should have term limits. After 5 years in the office, they should have to put in 1 - 2 years in classroom again.

8. Physical education, recess, the arts should be part of every students schedule.

9. Students who have special needs (on both ends of the spectrum) should be placed with teachers trained to meet those needs. If necessary, pay those teachers more so that these students can get what they need without disrupting the learning of students who have a different set of needs.

10. Vocational and technical education should be available in every high school.

11. Schools should be downsized. Districts should be downsized too. Large schools and districts create impersonal and inefficient bureaucracies. The purpose of these schools becomes finding ways to sustain the bureaucracy rather than educate the children.

If i think about this longer, I'm sure I'll have more to add; I have a LOT of frustration with public education at the moment.

[Chef Dave]

7. Quality administration - administrators should have term limits. After 5 years in the office, they should have to put in 1 - 2 years in classroom again.


Hah-hah ... that's a GREAT IDEA!

Towards the end of my elementary teaching experience, I once had an administrator in training (still in grad school and doing her stint at my school) lecture me on how to teach.

At that time I had 16 years experience and a Master's degree. This woman taught for two years, left the field of education for 10 years, and was now back as an administrator in training.

She didn't know the curriculum. She had never worked at an inner city school. She didn't know the kids ... but she seemed to feel that her position conferred omnipotent wisdom when in fact she really didn't know what she was doing.

[busbus]

Maybe we should just have a school tax and you pay a certain amount per child you have in public schools :) That would get the families that have tons of kids in our system!
An interesting idea. However, the schools would lose funding from people like me. I have no children and do not plan to have any.

My school district is funded with property taxes. It gets a lot from me. Still, I do not have one child in the school system. I'm not complaining; I know that I'm investing in our future. However, I am in schools everyday, I travel across my district. It is so sad. Schools that were considered top notch about ten years ago have gone down hill.

I personally feel that a large percentage of our students and parents do not place a high value on education. To many of our students feel that school is the place to socialize. A place for learning? What are you talking about Willis?

Perhaps if parents have to pay a tax for each child that they have in school, and the law still makes it mandatory for children to attend school, then they would think twice about the value of education. In addition, I think that parents need to put a deposit on the textbooks that each of their children are given to use. Too much of the little money that schools get is used to replace "lost" or defaced books.

I work in an inner-city school district. Believe me, many of the families that we think are poor are not as poor as we think. ;) Not all, but some! When you invest, I think, you want a good return on your investment. Plus, this kind of tax would add to the funding already in place. As far as the book deposits? Hey, if the books are returned with no less than normal wear and tear, deposits will be returned.

[Entropy]

Wow, Muinteoir, I agree with your list 100%.

I would only add a couple things off the top of my head:

1) Education needs to cater to and develop the interests of each child. I know some charter schools that focus on art or math. Imagine a school that uses, as its driving motivator, something a student is passionate about.

2) (Putting on protective shield...) Public school needs to view homeschooling as its ally, not its enemy. I don't know how it would all mesh together, but there are some amazing resources in the homeschooling communities. It's a small community, but it's definately growing..

I too am extremely dissatisfied with public education as a whole.

[kingrichie]

Stop wasting resources, especially food. I see more kids on free or reduced lunch dump out more than half of their tray everyday.

[Lollie]

This is what really baffles me about all these NCLB and reform acts going on - the only thing they can control is the teachers. Therefore, we're the only ones held accountable.

Parenting, home conditions, abuse, diet, - all that crap that AFFECTS their learning is beyond our control yet our butt is on the line! They come in the classroom with all this luggage from the outside world and we're not supposed to leave anyone behind??? Not the abused, not the hungry, not the neglected - that's insane!

I LOVE the idea of rewarding parents for good grades - that's brilliant! We do, here in Kentucky, set money aside for certain grades that can be used at state colleges but unless it's in their hand, ALL parents won't buy in.

I'm not as articulate as i'd like to be on this topic - holding us accountable because we're the only ones the government can govern is backwards! how do we fix it?!

[muinteoir]

We are totally on the same wavelength.


Wow, Muinteoir, I agree with your list 100%.

I would only add a couple things off the top of my head:

1) Education needs to cater to and develop the interests of each child. I know some charter schools that focus on art or math. Imagine a school that uses, as its driving motivator, something a student is passionate about.

I almost feel like saying "duh!" (except that I hate the expression) Letting kids explore & learn about things they are interested in?!?!? What a novel idea.

I am a huge fan of magnet schools. We have several magnets in the public school systems around here in different areas; performing arts, health careers, design... There are waiting lists to get in. I would love to see more of this type of school.

Charter schools are overcoming a bad reputation here; too many were just thrown together as a money-making scheme. They are getting better & better though. We have quite few charters that have a science/math/tech focus. Being a science teacher myself, I think that's great, but I would like to see a variety. Not everyone wants to be an engineer.


2) (Putting on protective shield...) Public school needs to view homeschooling as its ally, not its enemy. I don't know how it would all mesh together, but there are some amazing resources in the homeschooling communities. It's a small community, but it's definately growing..

I too am extremely dissatisfied with public education as a whole.

I agree again. homeschooling also has to overcome some negative stereotypes (some are deserved), but it's a viable alternative for many.

Are you familiar with University Model Schools? (Google it, I think my link triggers a spam filter or something)

I am completely intrigued with this idea. Right now all of the schools are faith-based (I have no problem with that) but I also think think secular schools could follow this model just as easily. It could be the 'mesh' between traditional and homeschooling.

[Entropy]

Holy Cow! (No pun intended) Thanks for the info on University Model Schools. I see how it could be the future of education! Here's a quick definition I pulled off a UMS site:

University-model education takes the best aspects of traditional public and private schools, as well as home schools, and molds them into one model. UMS uses a university-style schedule adapted to the elementary, junior, and senior high levels. Professional teachers teaching in their areas of expertise conduct central classroom instruction. Elementary students attend classes on Tuesday and Thursday while secondary students go to school on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday. Students spend alternative days at home where parents continue their instruction or monitor student progress. Teachers provide parents with detailed instructions for days spent at home.

UMS caters to a wide variety of student needs by allowing a range of enrollment opportunities. A student may choose to take only one or two classes, or may opt to take a full academic load. Much like courses listed in a college catalog, each course description contains information about the course, prerequisites, and parental involvement for that class. Tuition is paid per course, per semester.

Though off-campus parental roles are clearly defined and required in the model, UMS should not be equated with home schooling or home schooling cooperatives. Nor should UMS be understood as traditional classroom education that has simply reduced classroom time (i.e. a Mon/Wed/Fri. classroom agenda). Its significance lies in its ability to effectively partner parents with highly qualified teachers to gain better academic results, especially among average students. This partnership is facilitated by using a university-type schedule and administrative system, while requiring a strong work ethic. The UMS model has proved to be one of the best preparations for students planning on attending college.

Very exciting!

Oh - and adding to the list from the original question:

* Teacher preparation programs need to improve.
* Student teaching should last a year.
* Graduate programs should require previous teaching experience
* Teaching should be specialized; K-1 credential, 2-4, 5-6, etc. (I'm not suggesting that as the breakdown though...)
* All teachers should be reading specialists in addition to their major: Science & Reading. Math & Reading. History & Reading. K-1 & Reading.

I love this thread. :)
-Jodi

[muinteoir]

Teacher preparation programs need to improve.

And professors should also have terms limits. Every 5 years, they should have to teach for a year in a regular public school (not a university lab school)


Student teaching should last a year.

Followed by 1 - 3 years of mentorship; almost an apprentice - journeyman - master teacher system. Mentor teachers should be the best we have and they should be compensated well for taking on young teachers.


Graduate programs should require previous teaching experience

Agreed!


Teaching should be specialized; K-1 credential, 2-4, 5-6, etc. (I'm not suggesting that as the breakdown though...)

Texas has dozens, maybe hundreds, of different certifications. Some of them are broken down EC-4, 4 - 8, 8-12. One of the certifications is a 4-8 generalist. This certifies you to teach everything in grades 4 - 8. :eek: Problem is, teachers aren't prepared to teach everything and we are ending up with teachers that have major gaps in content knowledge.



All teachers should be reading specialists in addition to their major: Science & Reading. Math & Reading. History & Reading. K-1 & Reading.

Brilliant! I would change 'reading' to 'literacy' - it may just be semantics, but in my mind literacy is more encompassing of reading, vocabulary, and writing strategies.
I went through an adolescent literacy institute a couple of years ago. It did more to improve my science teaching than anything I've done in along time.


I love this thread. :)
-Jodi

Me too.:)